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Old 03-24-2013, 10:36 PM   #41
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So now that you have impugned my character, may I ask what your credentials are? Have you ever taken an exam as comprehensive as the BJCP? Have you any idea what goes into it?

If it were easy, anyone could do it. If you think you are better than I then by all means go prove it. The world needs more qualified judges. If you think my skills are lacking then dilute my shortcomings with your knowledge.

Insults are however the refuge of a person who is losing an argument.

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Old 03-24-2013, 10:41 PM   #42
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I think that IPAs have definitely established themselves as the primary american craft 'style'. Can't see that changing.

I do think that all the double and triple IPAs have tested the limits of the average beer drinker's palate - so the IBU space race may be a trend.

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Old 03-24-2013, 10:49 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EyePeeA View Post
I'm always up for "intellectual debate"... But it is the intellectual part of that phrase that matters more than a slew of fragmented & misinformed opinions. I have no problem owning if I am wrong about something if it is indeed the case. Can you say the same?
Your response changed after I first read it so I did not see this part.

I am always willing to be wrong, I'm just not sure there's any way either of us can prove that we are right. There are objective and subjective measurements at play here and I'm not sure we will get past that.

You imply I have slighted every American by repeating that which is part of the BJCP style guidelines. I do not think it is incorrect to say the style now known as an Imperial India Pale Ale is a style originating in the US and grew out of a society where excesses are celebrated. How else did it come to be do you think? In order to understand the style as a style, the history is as important as the ingredients. In fact (at least when I took the test) there was as much emphasis on the history as the ingredients themselves.

I gave examples of beers I thought were good; were they not good beers, exemplary of the style indicated? I don't have the names for ones I did not favor written down because I simply never intended to drink them again.

What about what I have written is simply wrong (opinions are however ... well, you know what they are, including mine)? If we are to have an intellectual conversation you at least have to come at me with reasons what I've said is wrong. Otherwise it's "I think" vs. "You think" and no argument was ever settled that way (at least on the Internet). I am a voracious reader, maybe you can point me towards some additional literature with which I can bolster my knowledge in this area.
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Old 03-25-2013, 12:24 PM   #44
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It's not me vs. you; It's you vs. reality. There is absolutely nothing wrong with preferring other styles of beer, saying so, and owning it. But when you go on and on about defining what IPAs should be and how others should approach the style just because you read it in the BJCP curriculum, well then I just have to laugh. I would appreciate that you not generalize how an IPA should taste like for the consuming public or how professional and amateur brewers should go about brewing their hoppy beers.

It seems like you are angry that you cannot fit IPAs into a little box, perhaps for a better personal understanding because they have always eluded you. This must bother you being that you are so hung up on style requirements. An excellent American IPA does not have to be within a certain amount of IBUs, SRM, starting gravity, final ABV or even be composed of American malt or yeast. We see this everyday with beers like Hopslam, Mikkeller 1000, Racer 5, Hop Rod Rye, 75 Minute, 120 Minute, All Day IPA, Route 113, and Torpedo. I advise throwing away the book and start trusting your own senses for once.

Lastly, my credentials are tasting and brewing more IPAs than yourself, and knowing more about their evolution in general it seems. After reading your ignorant comments about the style and its appreciators, it appears that you are still stuck in the 1800s. Just because you took a standard exam on beer and now you think you are some kind of authority on beer does not actually make you an authority.

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Old 03-25-2013, 12:53 PM   #45
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Now kids I am going to have to send you both into a corner

In short both of you are wrong. One of you is a judge and cannot see that the other beer beer is not in front of you but rather a loosely defined beer in front of the other guy. Heck I brew a few beers that I have no clue what they are nor do I care.

The other guy and sorry I do not remember names very well You cannot seem to understand that since he is a judge of beers he will use the guidelines laid out for judging beers. You may not like the way he judges beer but guess what he is still a judge.

And this is why I brew beer for my taste and do not enter competitions.

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Old 03-25-2013, 12:56 PM   #46
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I'll agree with that. My point is that sometimes formal education, especially on a topic as subjective as beer, has the opposite effect. A lot of the BJCP folk can exclaim about being supposed experts and yet have no idea what's going on. It's fascinating.

Learning about all of the different styles and forming general, but flexible descriptions of them is fine. But it does not mean we should all brew like robots and hit all of the BJCP "American Pale Ale" (10A) guidelines to the letter. After all, they are guidelines, not requirements.

Cheers

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Old 03-25-2013, 02:03 PM   #47
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I'm sorry but what does this have to do with hoppy beers being or not being a trend? Could we just get back on topic which I thought was an interesting one, at least more interesting than whether or not most beers sold as IPAs today are actually IPAs or Dr Frankenhops' monsters. I've stated that I think they are a trend but that I think we will still brew with more hops than we previously did in the past.

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Old 03-25-2013, 02:30 PM   #48
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Hoppy beers are not a trend.

Overly hopped (Hop-Bombs) are a fad that will change over time but IPA's and APA's are an American staple now and will not be going away.

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Old 03-25-2013, 02:45 PM   #49
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This has turned into something that seems like a conversation with my wife - where the answer (and challenge) is something other than that which I just said (or thought I said). I'm going to go ahead and unsub from the thread, allowing y'all to have the last word and me to have some peace of mind.

If you're ever in KC drop me a line. We can discuss over a beer - which HAS to work better than this has.

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Old 03-25-2013, 02:54 PM   #50
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You can only truly have debates about beer...while drinking beer!

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