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Old 05-27-2008, 10:44 PM   #1
pcrawford
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Default Duchesse de Bourgogne

Had this for the second time on Tap this weekend. This stuff is amazing. Its a sour ale, but not too sour. It was great has anyone had something like this and how can I brew it?

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Old 05-27-2008, 10:53 PM   #2
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I love it, but there's some keg variation. I've had some on draft before that tasting like carbonated balsamic vinegar. The bottles seem more stable, though.

The duchesse is a flemish red ale. These beers are fermented out to normal FG with an ale yeast, then inoculated with bacteria (such as Wyeast Roselare Blend). The bacteria form a pellicle on top of the beer and convert much of the remaining sugar, and sour the beer up right nice. This process takes upwards of a year.

I've got a Flanders Red (similar) planned. Listen to Jamil Z's podcast on Flanders Red if you wanna get into this...

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.planned:
•Scottish 80/- •Sweet Stout •Roggenbier
.primary | bright:
98: Moss Hollow Soured '09 72: Oude Kriek 99: B-Weisse 102: Brett'd BDSA 104: Feat of Strength Helles Bock 105: Merkin Brown
.on tap | kegged:
XX: Moss Hollow Springs Sparkling Water 95: Gott Mit Uns German Pils 91b: Brown Willie's Oaked Abbey Ale 103: Merkin Stout
98: Yorkshire Special 100: Maple Porter 89: Cidre Saison 101: Steffiweizen '09 (#3)
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Old 05-27-2008, 10:55 PM   #3
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ahhh - interesting stuff thanks.

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Old 05-27-2008, 11:22 PM   #4
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Had this on tap for my first soured ale. Intense vinegar smell and flavor. It really turned me off to trying some others - but after Evan!'s posting I may pick up a bottle.

The cherry flavor was suprising and delicious, I just couldn't get past the vinegar aroma and flavor.

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Old 05-27-2008, 11:29 PM   #5
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Good stuff. I have only had it in a bottle but it is one of my favorite Flanders Red ales.

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Old 05-28-2008, 03:15 AM   #6
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this beer is also blended. new beer and aged 18 month old beers are blended together for the final product.

I have a buddy who has a 18 month old version and is brewing a fresh batch soon to blend.

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Old 05-28-2008, 05:09 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan! View Post
These beers are fermented out to normal FG with an ale yeast, then inoculated with bacteria (such as Wyeast Roselare Blend). The bacteria form a pellicle on top of the beer and convert much of the remaining sugar, and sour the beer up right nice. This process takes upwards of a year.
Actually the bugs are in the initial pitching but the sourness really comes on after about a year because the bugs take a long time. The reason Jamil uses the ale yeast first and then the bugs is so the beer isn't intensely sour and so he can get a consistent beer. The breweries get away with this by blending there beers. For example Rodenbach blends a combination of 3 month old non-oaked beer with 18 month oaked version to get a combination of sweetness and sourness. I personally love the sourness so I usually drink the Grand Cru which is unbended 18 month oaked version.

The back on the post I love the Dutchesse. After Rodenbach Grand Cru it is up on my list. I agree with the differences in the beer. The big bottles rocks comma the tap is still good and the small bottles are lacking.
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Old 05-28-2008, 11:40 AM   #8
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Oooohhh, I've had this, in a bottle at a restaurant recently. I absolutely adore it - one of the best beers I've had in a long time. Flemish sour ales are rapidly becoming my favorite style.

You need Lactobacillus bacteria, as far as I know. I'm intimidated by using bacteria and different yeasts (Brettanomyces, for example) so I won't be making this for a while.

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Old 05-28-2008, 12:09 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sause View Post
Actually the bugs are in the initial pitching but the sourness really comes on after about a year because the bugs take a long time. The reason Jamil uses the ale yeast first and then the bugs is so the beer isn't intensely sour and so he can get a consistent beer. The breweries get away with this by blending there beers. For example Rodenbach blends a combination of 3 month old non-oaked beer with 18 month oaked version to get a combination of sweetness and sourness. I personally love the sourness so I usually drink the Grand Cru which is unbended 18 month oaked version.

The back on the post I love the Dutchesse. After Rodenbach Grand Cru it is up on my list. I agree with the differences in the beer. The big bottles rocks comma the tap is still good and the small bottles are lacking.
Oh, when I said "these beers", I was referring to Flanders Red as a general style as you and I would make it. I don't claim to be an expert on making sour beers as I still have yet to make one, but I have done plenty of reading up on lambics, et al and am probably most impressed with the likes of Cantillon...who let their brews get naturally infected (at least, I'm pretty sure they still do, unless something's changed recently). Either way, you are correct that the commercial breweries do it differently than homebrewers usually do.
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MOSS HOLLOW BREWING CO.
Aristocratic Ales, Lascivious Lagers


.planned:
•Scottish 80/- •Sweet Stout •Roggenbier
.primary | bright:
98: Moss Hollow Soured '09 72: Oude Kriek 99: B-Weisse 102: Brett'd BDSA 104: Feat of Strength Helles Bock 105: Merkin Brown
.on tap | kegged:
XX: Moss Hollow Springs Sparkling Water 95: Gott Mit Uns German Pils 91b: Brown Willie's Oaked Abbey Ale 103: Merkin Stout
98: Yorkshire Special 100: Maple Porter 89: Cidre Saison 101: Steffiweizen '09 (#3)
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Old 05-28-2008, 12:20 PM   #10
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For those of you who really like the Flanders red... Keep your eye out for a brewery named Panil. It is an Italian brewery with a very low production, but this is far and away the best sour red I have had. It has a purple label with an oak cask on it, and is pricey at 25-28 for a 750 mL, but worth every penny. It is rare to come by, but if you see one, pick it up. You can blame me if you don't agree!

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