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Old 04-30-2014, 02:25 AM   #11
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48 hours is too long. 24 is the maximum I'd go.
Read here: http://www.mrmalty.com/starter_faq.php
Doss says a starter made from an XL pack of yeast into 2 liters of wort will reach its maximum cell density within 12-18 hours. If you're starting with a very small amount of yeast in a large starter, it can take 24 hours or more to reach maximum cell densities. For the average starter, let's just say that the bulk of the yeast growth is done by 12-18 hours.

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Old 04-30-2014, 04:55 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by SEndorf View Post
48 hours is too long. 24 is the maximum I'd go.
Read here: http://www.mrmalty.com/starter_faq.php
Doss says a starter made from an XL pack of yeast into 2 liters of wort will reach its maximum cell density within 12-18 hours. If you're starting with a very small amount of yeast in a large starter, it can take 24 hours or more to reach maximum cell densities. For the average starter, let's just say that the bulk of the yeast growth is done by 12-18 hours.
If you're supposed to pitch the starter at the height of cell production then what is the point of cooling the starter to decant, seems like that would put the hard working yeast to sleep.

I was under the impression that the core purpose of creating a starter is to create more yeast and to prepare it to ferment wort, hence why all yeast calculators are based on final cell count.
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Old 04-30-2014, 05:06 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEndorf View Post
48 hours is too long. 24 is the maximum I'd go.
Read here: http://www.mrmalty.com/starter_faq.php
Doss says a starter made from an XL pack of yeast into 2 liters of wort will reach its maximum cell density within 12-18 hours. If you're starting with a very small amount of yeast in a large starter, it can take 24 hours or more to reach maximum cell densities. For the average starter, let's just say that the bulk of the yeast growth is done by 12-18 hours.
I wouldn't worry about losing viability. Typically you lose 20% viability in a month so about 0.66% percent per day. You typically need in the order of ~190 billion cells for a 5 gallon batch so that's about ~120 million per day loss. That a negligible number when your dealing with that much.

Just throw it in the fridge and use it in a reasonable time
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Old 04-30-2014, 11:49 AM   #14
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If you're supposed to pitch the starter at the height of cell production then what is the point of cooling the starter to decant, seems like that would put the hard working yeast to sleep.

I was under the impression that the core purpose of creating a starter is to create more yeast and to prepare it to ferment wort, hence why all yeast calculators are based on final cell count.
Its confusing, but I'll try to explain.

There are two approaches to pitching starters. Either you pitch at the height of activity or after activity has declined when the yeast cells are preparing for dormancy.

The advantages of pitching at high activity are reduced lag time, because the yeast are at full metabolic activity when pitched. The disadvantage is that this can potentially stress your yeast. If the starter is a different compositions of sugars and density to the main wort then the yeast has to adapt. Yeast are lazy and stop making enzymes that consume certain sugars if they are not constaintly exposed to them. Also the temp at which your starter is at if warmer than your wort which normally it will be then this will cause further stress. Normally you want to keep your starter at 20-23C but you want your pitch temp lower than your starting fermentation conditions, let say 16C. If you pitched to a wort at 23C your potential get funky flavours or you will have to cool it down. Yeast generally don't like being cooled down as this tiggers expectations of dormancy, which is not good to have at the begining of fermentation.

So IMO although pitching at high krausen is good for lag times you need to have a starter very similar to your main wort and the pitching temperature needs to be similar to your wort. This rules out most beers especially high gravity beers and ale and largers at cool fermentation temperatures. So most beers imo.

If you let the yeast starter reach high activity and then give it a further 18 hours what happens is during that time the yeast prepare for dormancy. They make a series of carbohydrates for a food storage and to fortify their cell wall, this is because they are anticipating that food will run out and that the environment that will follow will be different. Futher more they are readying themselves for a changes in temp, avalible sugars and osmotic pressure.

If you put the starter in the fridge 18 hours after full krausen, so basically once flocculation has mostly completed, approx. 30-36 hours after making the stater the yeast will be the most tolerant to a change in conditions once pitched. You will be pitching from a low temperature to a higher one meaning the yeast will be switched on by a favourable temp change as opposed to off by a negative one. The production of those carbohydrates i mentioned mean the yeast is less stressed by the change in osmostic pressure and are switched on to make any enzymes required to consume any types of sugars they physically can. The start will be slower because you have to wait for the yeast and wort to reach fermentation temp but yeast health should in theory be better.

I use the second method and I normally get strong airlock activity with 12 hours, probably less but I pitch over night so I can't be sure exactly when. So the additional lag imo is a not an issue.

You also have the advantage that you can decant off the rubish starter beer, which is important for pale beers in particular.
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Old 04-30-2014, 05:08 PM   #15
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Its confusing, but I'll try to explain.

There are two approaches to pitching starters. Either you pitch at the height of activity or after activity has declined when the yeast cells are preparing for dormancy.

The advantages of pitching at high activity are reduced lag time, because the yeast are at full metabolic activity when pitched. The disadvantage is that this can potentially stress your yeast. If the starter is a different compositions of sugars and density to the main wort then the yeast has to adapt. Yeast are lazy and stop making enzymes that consume certain sugars if they are not constaintly exposed to them. Also the temp at which your starter is at if warmer than your wort which normally it will be then this will cause further stress. Normally you want to keep your starter at 20-23C but you want your pitch temp lower than your starting fermentation conditions, let say 16C. If you pitched to a wort at 23C your potential get funky flavours or you will have to cool it down. Yeast generally don't like being cooled down as this tiggers expectations of dormancy, which is not good to have at the begining of fermentation.

So IMO although pitching at high krausen is good for lag times you need to have a starter very similar to your main wort and the pitching temperature needs to be similar to your wort. This rules out most beers especially high gravity beers and ale and largers at cool fermentation temperatures. So most beers imo.

If you let the yeast starter reach high activity and then give it a further 18 hours what happens is during that time the yeast prepare for dormancy. They make a series of carbohydrates for a food storage and to fortify their cell wall, this is because they are anticipating that food will run out and that the environment that will follow will be different. Futher more they are readying themselves for a changes in temp, avalible sugars and osmotic pressure.

If you put the starter in the fridge 18 hours after full krausen, so basically once flocculation has mostly completed, approx. 30-36 hours after making the stater the yeast will be the most tolerant to a change in conditions once pitched. You will be pitching from a low temperature to a higher one meaning the yeast will be switched on by a favourable temp change as opposed to off by a negative one. The production of those carbohydrates i mentioned mean the yeast is less stressed by the change in osmostic pressure and are switched on to make any enzymes required to consume any types of sugars they physically can. The start will be slower because you have to wait for the yeast and wort to reach fermentation temp but yeast health should in theory be better.

I use the second method and I normally get strong airlock activity with 12 hours, probably less but I pitch over night so I can't be sure exactly when. So the additional lag imo is a not an issue.

You also have the advantage that you can decant off the rubish starter beer, which is important for pale beers in particular.
So do you usually pitch your starter straight from the fridge (after decanting)? I usually decant on the morning of brew day and let the starter sit out to warm up to room temp slowly so it will be near pitching temp when its time to pitch.

I also usually let the starter go for 48-72 hours until there is no visible activity (CO2 bubbles rising to the surface) before putting it in the fridge for about 12 hours. So far I haven't had any lag issues, bubbling usually starts in 2-12 hours.
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Old 04-30-2014, 06:14 PM   #16
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I pitch straight from the fridge, this is because I pitch to a cool wort below the fermentation range and then bring the wort with yeast pitched up to fermentation temp in my water bath.

So the yeast would be a 5C, the cool wort at 16C and the swamp cooler/heater at 18.5C (depending on the strain.

You could warm it before hand, in fact I bring it out of the fridge an hour or so before, but you don't want the starter to be warmer than the wort it is going to be pitched too. That is the key factor. As far as I understand the yeast don't get thermal shock when going from cold to warm providing it not hot.

With regards the time given before pitching Palmar recommends a minimum of 18 hours after peak activity to ensure the yeast are prepared for dormancy. He then goes on to suggest that at room temp any time of up to 2 days after that can they be pitched without negative result.

I generally look for the krausen, I keep the stir plate low so that it gathers on the surface. If I miss it I look for the colour change due to flocculation. After which I wait roughtly 18 years and fridge it. Then I use it within a couple of days. So assuming a high krausen somewhere between 12-18 hours your looking 30-36 hours+up to 48hours, so something like 36-84 hours as a rough guide. Though your really need to be looking at what the yeast is doing.

From your post it looks like what you doing is perfect and very similar to myself. You could keep them in the fridge for more than 48 hours, but how long I don't know.

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Old 04-30-2014, 06:42 PM   #17
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I generally look for the krausen, I keep the stir plate low so that it gathers on the surface. If I miss it I look for the colour change due to flocculation. After which I wait roughtly 18 years and fridge it. .


18 years that is some well aged yeast. Like a fine cognac..



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Old 04-30-2014, 07:07 PM   #18
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I obviously need to change up the time at which I make my starters as I've made them the day before which gives them 24-36 hours. I guess I'll make them in the morning instead or even the night before that so that it's closer to 48 hrs later.

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