Trying to track down the problems I'm having hitting OG...

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tamoore

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Background: I'm batch sparging in a 48qt cooler with a manifold setup.
I'm using the iPhone app "Brew Pal" to come up with my water calculations.
I've set it up so that my efficiency is a modest 65%.

I'm doing some tests this morning, to make sure I have my equipment dialed in correctly in the software.

I checked the container I was using to measure my water, and It seems like I might have been getting a bit too much water through the system. Not a crazy amount, but probably off by +1 quart.

I'm running a boil off test on 3 gallons of water to see what my boil loss percentage is.

I've tested my thermometers in ice water, and they're all within an acceptable tolerance - however yesterday, my remote probe thermometer was reading way higher in the mash than the stick thermometers were reading. I had 2 stick thermometers that I stuck in several places, each read right around my target of 152. The remote probe thermometer was reading 164. I'm thinking this is suspect.

I researched thermometers a bit, and I notice that some remote probe thermometers have probes that aren't water proof, and this can cause issues when they get wet. I know that on this batch, the probe was under the water.

I've also researched batch sparging technique, and realize that I might have been messing up a bit on my sparge. I have read never to hit the grains with more than 170 degree water, but Brew Pal was wanting 186 degree sparge water. I would hit it with 168.

I've also read that you want to stir the sparge/grist well, but not to let it foam. I got some pretty serious foam, not sure if that's a problem or not.

I've read some advice that leads me to believe I may want to split the sparge into two smaller runnings of equal size.

The recipe I brewed yesterday was 6.2 gallons into the brew pot, and it was supposed to have an O.G. after boil of 1.064. I ended up with an O.G. of 1.052 - even with a grain bill set up for only 65%, so it's a pretty serious problem.

Sorry if I'm rambling, but I'm really racking my brain trying to figure out what the failure is...

Any insights you might share, questions about my process you might ask, or pictures of my equipment you may need to help me figure out what's going on here?
 
Sparging hot isn't a problem. Tannins do not go into solution instantly and once the water is mixed, the temperature will be correct. It's the bed you don't want over 170F.
 
I'm running a boil off test on 3 gallons of water to see what my boil loss percentage is.

I have a problem with boil loss percentages. If you do a trial boil of 3 gallons, and you lose 1 gallon to evaporation, does this mean that you would lose 2 gallons to evaporation if you boiled 6 gallons? I think not. You would still lose ~1 gallon (assuming you boil at the same rate). If your software insists on a %age, then do the 3g boil and find out how much you evaporated, then express that as a %age of your normal boil volume.

I've tested my thermometers in ice water, and they're all within an acceptable tolerance - however yesterday, my remote probe thermometer was reading way higher in the mash than the stick thermometers were reading. I had 2 stick thermometers that I stuck in several places, each read right around my target of 152. The remote probe thermometer was reading 164. I'm thinking this is suspect.

I would think that stick on thermometers would read low as they would be exposed to the air which I assume will be less than 152F.

I've also researched batch sparging technique, and realize that I might have been messing up a bit on my sparge. I have read never to hit the grains with more than 170 degree water, but Brew Pal was wanting 186 degree sparge water. I would hit it with 168.

I'm guessing you've been reading How to Brew. If so, look at the description of the mash out, where you can add an infusion of hot water to bring the grain bed temperature up to 168F before starting the sparge.
That water would have to be much hotter than 170F. I use near boiling water to do this, and don't have a problem. For your first sparge, I would definitely use much hotter water to bring the grain bed temperature up to the magic 168. If you do two sparges, you may want to use cooler water for the second sparge as the pH of the grain bed will have increased, thus increasing the possibility of tannin extraction.

Good luck.

-a.
 
Thanks for the info regarding sparge water temps. When I looked deeper into this, I basically learned what you're confirming here for me. I also read where using sparge water that isn't hot enoug can lead to a 10% reduction in efficiency.

Regarding boil off %: I figured out what you're talking about as soon as my 3 gallon boil was over, ajf. 27% boil off for 3 gallons in an hour... But when adjusted for a 6.1 gallon boil, it's more like 13%. I'm using 9%/hr in Brew Pal.

The thermometers I'm talking about aren't 'stick on' thermometers, but rather all in one probe thermometers with a dial on the end. Sorry for the confusion. ;)

Thanks again.
 
Just thinking:

How about grain crush? I ordered my last two grain batches crushed from Midwest Supplies. Anyone have any problems with their crush?
 
24987_10150188494285553_790740552_11948190_7185872_n.jpg


Here is a the only photo I took of a crush from Midwest supplies. It has some flaked barely in there, but the husks of the Marris Otter look pretty much in tact. How does it look to you?

I have about a half pound of the Marris Otter grain left over that I could spread out and take a picture of.
 
That crush looks fairly good, I don't see any whole kernels and the husks aren't shredded.
 
I'm just brainstorming here, but do you have the same efficiency with Marris Otter and US 2-Row? I know that Maris Otter has a slightly lower diastatic power than domestic 2-row. With the other grains maybe you need a slightly longer mash time.:confused:

This would be a much better argument if you were using pilsner malt, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
 
I'm just brainstorming here, but do you have the same efficiency with Marris Otter and US 2-Row? I know that Maris Otter has a slightly lower diastatic power than domestic 2-row. With the other grains maybe you need a slightly longer mash time.:confused:

This would be a much better argument if you were using pilsner malt, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

The Marris Otter brew I made ended up at 57% efficiency. The two I've done with US 2 row have been right around 55. More or less the same.
 
Sound like a process problem.

Just raising your temp for the mash out can greatly change your efficiency.

Are you sure you had complete conversion? When you batch sparged, did you split your batch, vorlauf, stir complety?

I would also verify your volume measurements.

Good luck,

Bull
 
Sound like a process problem.

Just raising your temp for the mash out can greatly change your efficiency.

Are you sure you had complete conversion? When you batch sparged, did you split your batch, vorlauf, stir complety?

I would also verify your volume measurements.

Good luck,

Bull

Thanks.

I think that one of the core things I was doing wrong was mashing out at too low of a temp.

I'm not sure whether or not I had complete conversion, to be honest. On this batch, I pre-heated the tun with 200 degree water while I waited for my strike water to hit temp (166 degrees), Dumped the preheated water out, threw in the strike water, then dumped the grains in. After stirring in the grains completely, I was measuring the temp of the grain bed at 151/152 degrees, which was more or less my target. I sealed up the cooler and wrapped it up with two sleeping bags for an hour before draining. I hadn't lost much heat at all in the bed by the end of the hour.

Along with not mashing out hot enough, I'm learning that I should have split my single batch sparge into two. I did vorlauf (about 2 quarts) and completely stir the one batch sparge I did, however.
 
Ok, I'm brewing again next Saturday. Lemme run down what I plan on doing, step by step, and you guys tell me if any of this seems wrong....


Grain bill: 15.5 pounds. Pre boil volume 6.1 gallons, pre boil gravity 1.062.

1) Pre heat tun with 2 gallons 200 degree water.
2) Heat 4.8 gallons of strike water to 167 for 152 mash target temp.
3) Remove preheated water from tun.
4) Add strike water.
5) Mix in grains well, seal up tun, rest for 60 minutes.
6) Begin heating 7 quarts of water to 196 for 169 degree first sparge round.
7) Open cooler, draw first runnings into pitcher until liquid is clear.
8) Vorlauf pitcher back into tun, collect runnings in boil pot until tun is emptied.
9) Add 7 quarts of 196 degree water to tun, mix gently but thoroughly, close tun and wait for 10 minutes.
10) Begin heating 7 more quarts of water for the second batch sparge.
11) Open tun and vorlauf until wort runs clear. Recirculate, and collect wort until tun is emptied.
12) Add 7 quarts of 169 degree water to tun, mix gently but thoroughly.
13 Vorlauf until wort runs clear, collect final runnings until tun is emptied.

Hopefully, end up with just a little over 6 gallons in boil pot at correct gravity.

So, what will I be screwing up here? This is pretty darn close to what I have been doing, with the exception of the heat of the batch water, and the double batch sparge.
 
After your 60 min rest @ 152, Add your hot sparge water to your tun and stir thoroughly to raise the bed temp to 168+/-.

Rest for 15 min, then start you vorlauf.

Drain and repeat. The second batch of sparge water doesn't need to be hotter than 170 degrees, as your grain bed will already be at 168+/-.

You should get 80%+/- with this method.

A 15.5 grain bill in a 5 gal batch is going to give you a pretty big beer(7.5%abv or better):D

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Bull
 
After your 60 min rest @ 152, Add your hot sparge water to your tun and stir thoroughly to raise the bed temp to 168+/-.

Rest for 15 min, then start you vorlauf.

Drain and repeat. The second batch of sparge water doesn't need to be hotter than 170 degrees, as your grain bed will already be at 168+/-.

You should get 80%+/- with this method.

A 15.5 grain bill in a 5 gal batch is going to give you a pretty big beer(7.5%abv or better):D

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Bull

So you're saying add the 7 quarts of 196 degree water before I ever drain anything off..... Ok, that's something I mush have been missing from all the descriptions of batch sparging I've read before....

Thanks!
 
The only thing that has not come up in this discussion is pH. What is your mash pH? If you are too high or too low that could throw off your enzyme activity too. My guess is you have that covered, I just thought I'd throw that out.

Good Luck with your new process!
 
The only thing that has not come up in this discussion is pH. What is your mash pH? If you are too high or too low that could throw off your enzyme activity too. My guess is you have that covered, I just thought I'd throw that out.

Good Luck with your new process!

Thanks!

I don't really know my PH, but due to my past problems, I used a table spoon of 5.2 buffer in this batch just to see if that was the issue.

I just sent my water to the lab for testing this morning, though. ;)
 
What are everyone's thoughts on stirring every 15 minutes during the 60 minute mash?

I stir thoroughly but gently as I'm adding my grain to the water.

Then again after about 5 min just to make sure my temps are correct.

Cover and leave it alone for 60 min.

I then gently stir as I'm raising to mashout temp.

It really is a very simple process.

Bull
 
What is the reason for the gentle stir? I have been dumping my sparge water in pretty quickly, and then stirring like I'd stir a soup. I'm not sure how 'gentle' gentle is. ;)
 
I'm adjusting some things hoping for better efficiency on my next batch, but I still have some questions about batch sparging....

In order to reduce my grain bill, I've optimistically set my theoretical efficiency to 70%, which gives me 14 pounds of grain to get to my desired O.G. of 1.069.

I've decided to reduce my mash thickness by going from 1.25q/lb to 1.5q/lb, which will require 5.2 gallons of strike water.

This leaves me with about 3 gallons of water left to do two sparges with, or 1.5 gallons per rinse.

I'm planning on doing the first sparge with 186F water to raise the grain bed to 165 for easier lautering, and the second sparge at 165F.

My question is, is 1.5 gallons enough to do an adequate rinse job in that much grain?
 
As hoppus stated, you don't want to add any oxygen to your mash/wort when it is above 86 degrees. Only oxygenate after your wort has been cooled, prior to pitching yeast.

I keep my ratio @ 1.25 qts. per pound. That is plenty for your mash to convert.

I target 170 for mash out when I'm infusing because you can easily drop a degree or 2 just by stirring and leaving the lid open. Raising the temp requires you to add more water, therefore reducing your sparge volume.

For a 5 gal batch, I just mash on the stove in a 35 qt pot. That way I'm just direct heating the pot to raise to mashout temp. As you raise the temp of your mash, it thins out and I have never had a problem with sticking or scorching. :ban:

Let us no how it works out for you.

Good luck,

Bull
 
One of the big things that helped my chronic low efficiencies was buying a grain mill. My brother in law and myself bought a crankenstein 2D I believe and our efficiencies went from upper 60's to upper 70's automatically. At the same time I switched to the no mash out single large sparge method with great success. This is with what I would consider a more fine grind than say NB or B3. I tend to stir my mash about 30 minutes in just for increased water to grain exposure.
 
One of the big things that helped my chronic low efficiencies was buying a grain mill. My brother in law and myself bought a crankenstein 2D I believe and our efficiencies went from upper 60's to upper 70's automatically. At the same time I switched to the no mash out single large sparge method with great success. This is with what I would consider a more fine grind than say NB or B3. I tend to stir my mash about 30 minutes in just for increased water to grain exposure.

I just ordered a monster mill yesterday. I've already ordered the grain for this next batch pre crushed, but I'll be ready for the next one. ;)

My head is swirling with all the options. I'm surely going to add a stir step at some point during the mash. Maybe 15-30 minutes in.

Thanks!
 
Ok. Thanks. Is this to avoid hot side aeration, or something else specifically tied to efficiency?

The "stir" is related to efficiency and "gentle" is to avoid hot side aeration. I'm glad you started this thread because I've had the same problem with efficiency and have learned something.
 
Well,

I tried all kinds of new stuff today, and my efficiency was just a little better at 57%.

Weird thing is, even after taking very careful measurements on water, I came out with my full volume in the brew pot, and ran off another ~2 quarts in another pitcher. I'll have to sort that out in my software...

This was the first time I attempted to adjust my water, so I picked Mosher's Ideal IPA profile, and targeted that. We'll see how that works out for me.

This is also the first time I pitched washed yeast, so I made a 1.5L starter of some 2nd Generation Wyeast that I harvested last weekend. That seems to have been OK.

Brew day was pretty much perfect. Everything went wonderfully smooth.

I took a gravity reading from the first runnings (from the vorlauf pitcher) at 1.083.
I took a gravity reading after draining three gallons and adding my batch sparge water (also from the vorlauf (at 1.055)
When I hit my boil volume (I stopped at 6.5 gallons), the wort checked at 1.054.
After the boil, it checked at 1.060, my target being 1.068.

Dang!!

Well, my mill comes in soon. I'm hoping that will take care of the issues I've been having.

Thanks for the help and advice you've given in this thread! Even though my gains this week were modest, they were still gains! :)
 
This thread is long dead, but I had hoped to poke it with a stick anyways. Did you ever get your efficiency up? Was it due to poor grain crush?
 
This thread is long dead, but I had hoped to poke it with a stick anyways. Did you ever get your efficiency up? Was it due to poor grain crush?

Hey,

It was due to several factors, but all of the help I got in bringing it up I received from this thread.

First for me was the crush. I got a monster mill, and set it to 'destroy'. My crushed grain is absolutely shredded, and the grain I was getting from my LHBS and online seller was more-or less just cracked.

Second, was paying attention to the volume my batch sparges, and calculating each run off being exactly equal. I think previously, I'd run my first batch off, and then just add as much water to make up the rest of my volume, which I'm sure was throwing me off.

Third was properly stirring the mash. I wasn't giving enough stirring time. Now, I stir the mash after dough-in a good 5 minutes before sealing up the tun, and another 5 minutes each before starting the sparge. I had always previously been concerned that I was losing too much heat when stirring after dough-in, but I've since found that the mash will hold the heat pretty well, and stirring is much more important than the half degree you'll lose.

Lastly, was proper water adjustments for PH.

I just did a 10 gallon batch of India Brown Ale yesterday, and my target pre-boil OG was 1.044 (70% calculated), and I hit 1.048, which is 77%.

Thanks for all the help, homebrew talk! :)
 
Awesome, thanks for your well thought out thread and response. I've got a mill coming for XMAS, and I hope it will make all the difference in the world
 
Thanks guys this just cleared up what I didn't understand
about batch sparging and mash out .
 
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