Trying to make Smirnoff Ice (or similar) - after 10 days not so yummy?

I'm new to the homebrew thing. Recently got my 4 tap beer tower all plumbed to my four cornies - now I need to fill them with some good stuff.

I've now made a total of two beer batches - one was done about 3 weeks ago and is not bad at all - the other is still in the primary and will be ready soon.

I thought I would fill one corny with a Smirnoff Ice type drink. I did some searching on this forum and found a few interesting recipes. Below is the recipe that I started on Feb7 (w OG 1064) and just transfered to carboy yesterday at 1012. I tried a sip during the transfer and it really did not taste very good. It is hard to describe, but just not nearly sweet enough and does not taste like lemons, cranberry or anything - rather it is kind of sour.

Can you guys look at my recipe and let me know if anything looks odd, and whether it is normal for the stuff to taste bad after only 10 days? Perhaps I should add a ton more sugar or lemonade or cranberry??? Let me know.

RECIPE:

1) boiled (more like steamed) 4 litres of water with 3 lbs of liquid malt extract with 2 lbs of dextrose and three camdon tabs and mixed well until lite boil (until everything was dissolved)

2) in primary I then added 3 cans of frozen lemonade, 1 can of frozen pink lemonade and 3 cans of frozen cranberry (all with no preservatives) and then added my boiled extract (noted above) plus water to fill primary to 18 litres.

3) I then sprinkled champagne yeast on top, covered and left alone for 9 days (OG was 1064)

4) after 9 days (FG at 1012), I transferred to carboy (ensuring not to transfer the guck on the bottom of the primary), then added 3 tsp of potassium sorbate (apparently this kills the yeast), and then added one more can of frozen lemonade, one can of frozen cranberry and 2/3 cups of dextrose (ensured it was all welll stirred)


The formula I found suggested that I could have added more malt extract for flavour, but I did not. So based on my recipe above, it is unnormal for the stuff to taste bad?? I hope to have it ready by monthend for a party I'm hosting - do you think it will taste OK in the next 12 days? Is there anything that I should add to it to make it taste more like a smirny?

Thanks

From what little I know of Smirnoff ice it has nothing to do with beer.
If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will rectify.
It's an alchopop.
The way this is generally brewed is a high ABV sugar brew which is then watered down and flavour is added.
They say it's vodka flavoured but I doubt if any distillation takes place.
It'd be pointless to distill to remove water then add it back.

It's basically Hooch so beware the trolls.

Odd, I don't know much about it either, but I swear they're all called "malted beverage" meaning malts are used in their creation. Other than that, though I don't know how to make them, nor am I fond of them, sorry I'm not much help.

Orfy said:

From what little I know of Smirnoff ice it has nothing to do with beer.
If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will rectify.
It's an alchopop.
The way this is generally brewed is a high ABV sugar brew which is then watered down and flavour is added.
They say it's vodka flavoured but I doubt if any distillation takes place.
It'd be pointless to distill to remove water then add it back.

It's basically Hooch so beware the trolls.

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In most of Europe, it's derived from spirits (i.e. they mix vodka into some unfermented base drink). In the U.S., it's a malt-based beverage because of tax laws.

Yes, in the US it's malt based due to beer/wine/liquor being taxed at different levels (and, depending on what state you're in, where they can be sold).

Basically, they brew a really light beer, and then filter it to strip out all flavor and color, leaving only alcoholic water (but since the alcohol came from malt...)

Then they add in sugar & flavoring.

You're not likely to be able to produce anything similar using homebrew techniques. You'd be better off mixing vodka with enough water/soda and juice to reach the same alcohol and flavor.

Sweeten with a simple syrup if necessary (boil 1 cup of water with 1 cup of sugar until it's all dissolved, then cool; it'll mix into any liquid much more easily than granulated sugar).

You could try making a 7% ABV wash (alcohol-base) with something like Still Spirits Turbo Yeast if it's legal where you live. After clearing it with a two-part fining agent and filtering it with distiller's carbon you're supposed to end up with a very weak tasting vodka solution. Then just add your sweeteners.

I haven't tried it though, and in the states vodka is probably cheap enough that it would be cost-prohibitive to try it haha! Here a 750ml bottle of Smirnoff is over $20US so you can see why it came to mind...

I think that after the several posts of flames, we actually settled down and came up with a recipe for Zima on here....the way I figure if you are serious, you could start here, and add a bit more flavor..

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/who-remembers-zima-how-do-i-go-about-making-65281/?highlight=zima

I am going to try to make something using the Sake Method and then adding Flavoring to it.

Probrewer also has some info..

Brewing a..."Malternative" Beverage. - ProBrewer Interactive

how bout those iced tea drinks? are they fermented tea or is that a vodka and flavoring drink?

Im just wondering if something like this would work.

68%

5# UK Pilsner 1.0 SRM
4.5# Minute Rice

O.G. 1.049
F.G. 1.008

WLP 705 Sake Yeast

Mash 90 Min 150 degrees

Cool First Runnings and Pitch Yeast, Add Margarita mix at kegging.

RICLARK said:

Im just wondering if something like this would work.

68%

5# UK Pilsner 1.0 SRM
4.5# Minute Rice

O.G. 1.049
F.G. 1.008

WLP 705 Sake Yeast

Mash 90 Min 150 degrees

Cool First Runnings and Pitch Yeast, Add Margarita mix at kegging.

Click to expand...

Can sake yeast convert barley malt or is it only rice specific? Besides that, I think it would be interesting...

I just realized something from the OP's original question..he said it turned sour..

I know we got so caught up in it being a malternative beverage, we didn't see that there was an actual question in there.

You know why it soured? It was unhopped. Think about when you make a starter, have you ever smelled or tasted it, if it's been a week in a flask? nasty...

Hops besides a bittering agent are also a preservative...Rick, you are going to need a tiny amount of hops in the boil to keep the stuff from turning...I don't know what the lowest ibu preservative threshold is, but I would add enough to get maybe 10 ibus and use a citrussy hop so it would impart some lemon to it...

The basic brewing guys proved how quick unhopped wort can turn in their base malt video experiment.

Part 1 (MP-4)

http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbv05-15-08basemalt.mp4

Part 2

http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbv05-28-08basemalt2.mp4

Part 3

http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbv08-08-08basemalt03.mp4

RICLARK said:

Im just wondering if something like this would work.

68%

5# UK Pilsner 1.0 SRM
4.5# Minute Rice

O.G. 1.049
F.G. 1.008

WLP 705 Sake Yeast

Mash 90 Min 150 degrees

Cool First Runnings and Pitch Yeast, Add Margarita mix at kegging.

Click to expand...

You'll need to boil that for at least a couple minutes; barley is loaded with... lactobacilus, I'm pretty sure.

Revvy said:

Hops besides a bittering agent are also a preservative...Rick, you are going to need a tiny amount of hops in the boil to keep the stuff from turning...I don't know what the lowest ibu preservative threshold is, but I would add enough to get maybe 10 ibus and use a citrussy hop so it would impart some lemon to it...

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I've found a few different recipes on the net for a "cooler" flavoured malt drink and none said to add hops. The recipe I found did however say to use DME but my local homebrew did not have some so said I could use liquid malt extract instead - they did say thought that 1 lb of DME equals about 1.2 lbs of liquid malt extract so I did acount for the diffrence.

I knew hops was necessary to give beer its bitter taste, but was not aware that hops is necessary to keep it from spoiling? Is that correct - will my batch go bad if I do not add hops?

What it really needs right now is much more of a sweet taste. I was thinking of adding a whole bottle of lemon seasoning, or maybe tons more sugar?

Any suggestions what I should do next?

That's the reason for the strong hop present in India Pale Ales.....

The late 18th century presented England with several vexing issues. While the upstarts in the North American colonies were certainly worthy of attention, there were two other matters of even greater importance: how to get beer to the colony in India and supply His Majesty’s sailors during the voyage.

Even today, beer does not travel well. Motion and heat speed the staling of beers brewed using the most modern techniques and equipment. 250 years ago, it was practically impossible to ship beer long distances and end up with a palatable product at the receiving port.

The trip to India was long and brutal; down the Atlantic through tropical heat, around the Cape of Good Hope, and back north into the tropics. (There was no Suez Canal until 1869, and even then it was still a very long, hot journey.) The first English beers arriving in India, porters from London, were usually sour, flat, and unfit for sale. Sailors on station in warm waters resorted to rum, theoretically diluted with water and flavored with citrus, because beer could not keep.

At the end of the 18th century, an enterprising brewer named Hodgson, motivated by the wide-open Indian beer market, solved the problem. He invented a new style of beer, brewing it to a high alcohol level and using more hops than any previous beers. While there is not enough alcohol in any beer to offer serious protection from microorganisms, having more of it will certainly not hurt. The real genius of his recipe is in the hops.

High hop levels can preserve a beer’s flavor in two ways: they have a limited ability to protect beer from spoilage by some microorganisms, and, more importantly, their bitterness can mask stale flavors. While the beer arriving in India would certainly have suffered from oxidative staling during the long voyage, it could still taste acceptable because of the masking effect of alcohol and hops.

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So yeah, I would add a low amount of citrussy hops in mine to get it to keep from souring...I'm sure the commercial makers of smirnof et al add some sort of chemical preservative.

If your batch is sour already I would dump it....sour isn't going to improve with age. I would play with the suggesions on here and the other thread I posted and come up with a slightly hopped recipe.

If you want to have something like this on tap, you're better off mixing vodka, water, sugar , lemonade, etc. to taste in a corny, then force carbing it.

Jamo99 said:

If you want to have something like this on tap, you're better off mixing vodka, water, sugar , lemonade, etc. to taste in a corny, then force carbing it.

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I agree. If you are after the finished product, this is probably the best way to go. Basically just make a lemon flavored wapatui.

If you are interested int he challenge, the links Revvy posted are rather good.

Rick, I can't take you seriously with that avatar. It is seriously affecting the way I look at your posts.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

Rick, I can't take you seriously with that avatar. It is seriously affecting the way I look at your posts.

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Yeah, I'm having the same issue....maybe if Bloggy at least had a 'Retha Hat, we could stand it better....

If I were in the US, then making a 19L corny with store bought vodka and mixed juices would be feasible. But here in Canada, a 750ml bottle is like $22 after taxes. I'm not sure how many 750ml bottles I would need to make a abv of 7% in a 19L corny, but I'd guess at least 5. Thus my 19L corny would be at least $120 after buying the juices and flavouring, which is $6.30 a litre or $2.10 per 330ml drink. At that price I'm better off just buying the store bought Smirnoff Ice, which is (to be exact) $2.16/ea when bought in the 24 case.

On the other hand, if I can make a tasty malt drink similar in taste to Mike's, Smirnoff, etc then a 19L batch will cost be $30'ish or $0.50 per 330ml drink.

So I just extracted a little more of my batch to a glass and have it another sip. It really isn't that sour - I'd say more like a sweet/sour mix. I even had the wife take a sip, and she too described it the same way. I really do not think it is rotten and needs to be dumped. I'm hoping it just needs more sugar or other additives and a liuttle more time.

Remember, even if it is sour, I suspect that woul be due to the fact that my batch is 90% made up of lemon and cranberry juices - these have tons of sugars in them to make them taste sweet - so when the yeast was done with my batch it removed all the sugar leaving just the lemon and cranberry juice, which would be sour by nature.

So, what should I do next:

1) dump it
2) let it be as-is for another week to see what happens
3) add something to it now and then leave for a week to see what happens.

If #3 is the best option for me, what should I add and in what quantities.

Thanks

If it's at the alcohol level you want, I'd say you should kill off the yeast (k-meta or something) and backsweeten with some sugar until it tastes right.

If it doesn't have enough alcohol yet, it's really up to the gravity reading as to whether it needs more sugar to ferment more.

EDIT: Or, instead of killing off the yeast, you could just sweeten with splenda or something.

dna_alexov said:

If I were in the US, then making a 19L corny with store bought vodka and mixed juices would be feasible. But here in Canada, a 750ml bottle is like $22 after taxes. I'm not sure how many 750ml bottles I would need to make a abv of 7% in a 19L corny, but I'd guess at least 5.

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You want .07*19000 = 1330ml of alcohol in a 19l corny.
Assuming your vodka is 80 proof, that's 40% ABV.
1330/.4 = 3325ml of vodka, or 4.43 bottles.

Alternatively, if you're trying to have the same ABV as Smirnoff Ice (5.5%) and using a 5 gallon corny, then you'd need 3.47 bottles of vodka.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

Basically just make a lemon flavored wapatui.

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Haven't heard wapatui in ages! Since college - a long long time ago. It's a midwest thing.

So I just read the Revy link for Zima - 9 pages and there's no happy ending to it. It's like someone ripped out the last pages of a murder mystery. It just stopped!

It's not a cheap answer but the Island Mist kits taste kinda along the lines of the alchopops. I guess it's a better quality drink than making flavored hooch. Tons of flavors available to choose from too.

-OCD

Hegh said:

If it's at the alcohol level you want, I'd say you should kill off the yeast (k-meta or something) and backsweeten with some sugar until it tastes right.

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I calculate that my abv is 6.7% which is about right and where I expected. I already added 3 tsb of potassium sorbate - does this not kill off the yeast or do I need this k-meta? If my 3 tsp of potassium sorbate was enough to kill off the yeast, then sounds like I just need to sweeten the **** out of this and maybe it will be good. What would most suggest I use and at what quantity being that I've got 18L in my batch. I really don't like aspertane, so should I just dump a kg of dextrose in there and mix real good?

Thanks

Sorbate doesn't kill yeast. It stops them from reproducing, but with a big population already in there they'll keep fermenting away.

Campden Tablets (same thing as K-Meta, or Potassium Metabisulfite) will kill the yeast as far as I know. Wine makers use them regularly. Here's the Austin Homebrew link: Austin Homebrew Supply

I'd say just use table sugar after killing the yeast. Cheaper and sweeter than dextrose (which is just the industrial name for glucose). If you boil it in some water to make a simple syrup (1-2 cups of sugar in 1 cup of water), it'll integrate really easy.

Try dumping some splenda into the batch to sweeten it up again. Its a non fermentable sugar.

EvilTOJ said:

Try dumping some splenda into the batch to sweeten it up again. Its a non fermentable sugar.

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Splenda's mostly sucralose, which is not a sugar. It does contain small amounts of dextrose, which is a sugar (but is also fermentable).

If no one else is going to be the voice of *****ebaggery here, I'll play devil's advocate.

Funkenjaeger said:

But that still leaves the question of WHY???

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Quoted from the Zima thread, but still 100% applicable.

Revvy said:

Can sake yeast convert barley malt or is it only rice specific? Besides that, I think it would be interesting...

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the Owner of my Lhbs said Champagne yeast should be used rather than Sake, And I Will boil the runnings for 15 mins and use 1 oz Amarillo at start of boil which will give me 15 IBU.

revy, would dry hopping serve as the preservative, or is it only if you boil them?

jonp9576 said:

revy, would dry hopping serve as the preservative, or is it only if you boil them?

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Good question...I dunno.

Something that never occurred to me...Time for me to hit teh googelz.



This is an interesting read....

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...d=147018&md5=94bc2b8679bf45eb88f41ed092199518

If I'm reading it correctly it appears that boiling needs to occur for those preservative chemicals to come through.

The study focused on the antiseptic properties of α-acids fraction (humulone) and β-acid fraction (lupulone).

The α-acid fraction is a mixture of homologous compounds, the α-acids, which are not transferred as such to beer. During the wort boiling stage in the brewing process, α-acids are converted by a rearrangement or isomerization to iso-α-acids, which are much more soluble and bitterer than the original compounds. This conversion, which is very important in hop chemistry, was advanced first in 1888 (Hayduck). [Wieland et al., 1925] suggested that the hydrolysis of humulone to humulinic acid proceeded via an intermediate. [Windisch et al., 1927] investigated the humulone boiling products under alkaline conditions and isolated a resinous and bitter oil termed “Resin A” with chemical properties similar to the intermediate and isomeric with humulone. Around 1950, [Rigby and Bethune, 1952 and Rigby and Bethune, 1953] showed that α-acid fraction is a mixture of three major compounds: humulone, cohumulone and adhumulone (Fig. 2). The bittering compounds of beer were found to comprise three major analogues of these three α-acids, which are now known as iso-α-acids: isohumulone, isocohumulone and isoadhumulone (Fig. 2). Stereoisomers (cis- and trans-) exist for each iso-α-acid. Finally, the chemical structure and configuration of naturally occuring (&#8722-humulone [de Keukeleire and Verzele, 1970] and isohumolones [de Keukeleire and Verzele, 1971. D. de Keukeleire and M. Verzele, The absolute configuration of the isohumulones and the humulinic acids. Tetrahedron 27 (1971), pp. 4939–4945. Abstract | PDF (466 K) | View Record in Scopus | Cited By in Scopus (7)de Keukeleire and Verzele, 1971] were elucidated. The isomerization yield of α-acids during wort boiling process is low (typically of the order of 30%) [Hughes, 2000] due to relatively acidic condition of wort (ca. pH 5.2) and the adsorption to the wort coagulum during boiling and fermentation.

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jonp9576 said:

revy, would dry hopping serve as the preservative, or is it only if you boil them?

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I think you have to boil them to release the AA's and peserving quality's.

u guys are so smart. what would i do without this board?

jonp9576 said:

u guys are so smart. what would i do without this board?

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Meh....if you didn't have this board you (and the rest of us) would probably do something useful, and actually contribute to society in some way, instead of wasting our time making, drinking and yakking about beer....Like cure cancer.

Imagine if we applied our mad brewing skills to something like that?????

Revvy said:

Meh....if you didn't have this board you (and the rest of us) would probably do something useful, and actually contribute to society in some way, instead of wasting our time making, drinking and yakking about beer....Like cure cancer.

Imagine if we applied our mad brewing skills to something like that?????

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Maybe we _are_ working on it.

From http://annonc.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/mdm590v1 Alcohol consumption and renal cell cancer risk in two Italian case–control studies:

This pooled analysis found an inverse association between alcohol drinking and RCC. Risks continued to decrease even above eight drinks per day (i.e. >100 g/day) of alcohol intake, with no apparent levelling in risk.

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if i spent the amount of time i do on here actually brewing i wouldnt have so many empty kegs in my basement

Revvy said:

Meh....if you didn't have this board you (and the rest of us) would probably do something useful, and actually contribute to society in some way, instead of wasting our time making, drinking and yakking about beer....Like cure cancer.

Imagine if we applied our mad brewing skills to something like that?????

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I only post here when I'm taking a break from curing cancer... can I have 5 more minutes please?

Damn Ive been racking my brain trying to think of a way to do this. I think my first Experiment will be with 50% Light DME and 50% Dextrose .5 oz amarillo boil for 15 mins. Pasteur champagne yeast.