Starters worth it really?

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unionrdr

unionrdr

Homebrewer, author & air gun collector
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2/8 I pitched a vial of WLP029 in an 800mL starter made with .5lb of light DME. Never again! Sticky all over,took a couple days to get working & finish. This morning 2/11,it has so much dissolved co2 the trub is dancing up & down like sea monkeys (remember those? Brine shrimp) so that the yeast won't finish settling.
This over & above the fact that I wound up with more trub than yeast. And those vials are pretty good size,like 1/3C of yeast in'em. Beer late getting brewed waiting on the starter to settle. And I had my battery die on me going for more DME cause I didn't read the damn bag-I'd pulled the wrong one out of the stash. I should've used less DME in it. Maybe it would've settled sooner. But,after all this,getting two trub layers with some yeast in the middle is it.
The vial says to just warm it up to room temp,shake to suspend yeast & pitch in beers with OG up to 1.070. Or if it's getting old,either way make a starter. Other than being old or bigger than 1.070,don't bother. I never made such a mess for nothing! Now I got brew ingredients I can't use yet & a dead battery,out of beer & smokes. Beer from last batch has that silty,fine grain stuff taking forever and a day to settle out. My youngest wants to go to the dr with a sore back. So if I'm lucky & can charge the car enough to start it,I can't turn it off,so I can't get out. Damn!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
 
I can't believe that I'm seeing you post this man.... we all know the importance of pitching enough yeast, and healthy yeast. I'm not getting your reasoning either, 3 days into fermentation... of course it's going to be cloudy, laden with co2 and not yet settled. RDWHAHB, brothaman, you're making delusional statements in your time of stress. :mug:
 
Wait, you are blaming your car battery dying on your starter??

But yeah, you don't "HAVE" to make a starter if you don't want to. Maybe just try brewing a few batches without one and compare?

I find with the proper sized flask and the stirplate (And canned starter wort) making a starter is quick and easy. And I know I can make one up a few days before and it will keep for a while with proper storage for a couple of weeks, so it's ready to use when I'm ready for it to be ready.
 
I don't know how you managed to make such a headache out of making a starter.

What is this battery you are talking about?

I have found that the quality of my brew has really increased since I started making starters....On my typical 1.060 - 1.070 brew I find that it really decreases time needed to bulk condition in primary and decreases bottle conditioning time (more healthy yeast, faster carb up time), if I bottle (I have a keg set up as well).

I also usually make a starter 1/3 larger than what I need so I can save that extra third and not have to buy yeast every time I brew.

I also use FermCapS (a couple bucks online or at HBS). I prevents boil overs completely, a couple drops in the starter and no boil over. I'll never make a starter without it from now on.
 
Well for one 0.5 lb is about 230 grams, so you used about 3 times the DME you should have. Not sure what you mean by a trub layer in your starter, but I would assume you just completely stressed the yeast. No wonder it's having trouble finishing.
 
I'm more curious about where all this trub came from when it was new yeast and DME. Making starters is easy once you get your workflow down. Measure out your water into a big pot, get it boiling, measure out your DME in advance, move water off the heat for a moment to add DME, mix it in, then get it back up to boil. Boil for a bit, cool it, then funnel into flask and add yeast. Spin for a few days, then cold crash if you wish and pour off the clear beer on top. Easy :)
 
Negativereaction hit it right on the nose - starters, done correctly, are not difficult. Done wrong, and they can be a major pain in the butt. As other folks have brought up though, not sure where you're getting trub from in there, unless the extra high gravity is generating way more hot break than normal...
 
HollisBT said:
Half a pound of DME in 800ml of water?
Click to expand...
Bingo - the starter gravity would have been over 1.100! Should have used ~~3 oz. DME (800 ml water and 80 grams extract), to get a starter in the range of 1.035 to 1.040.

This could explain the large amount of trub, as well as the "unsettled" yeast - you sure gave them a lot of work to do!

ETA: And if it turns out that the problem was in converting units, don't sweat it man. NASA once crashed a probe on Mars because someone forgot to convert units. So if it can happen to rocket scientists ...
 
^^This was the question I asked on the 8th when I wanted to get a starter going. I made real small ones to get old dry yeast going. but never the proper size,amount,whatever.
So let's try this again. I made a thread asking how much DME to 800mL of water. took a while,not much activity. So I took a guess. Then I reallized too late that I had grabbed the wrong bag of DME. I grabbed the light needed for the beer I'm starting the yeast for! Instead of the extra light I had a lil extra of,get it now? So I had to take the city streets to get to the lhbs in westlake cause a Bad VSS is drainin the battery,NO RESERVE POWER. But I didn't know how bad it was till I got some more DME & came out to go home.Car won't start,& i'm 20 some miles from home. And all because I used the wrong bag to make the starter that now won't settle out. It really does look like I got less yeast out then went in. And instead of brewin my beer,I hafta take my youngest to the dr since he said he hurt his back. I've got that & more piled up on me latey. When one thing goes wrong,the whole thing goes poof. And don't even get me started on that bill paddin elec co.
 
What was your OG? If it's under 1.07, you need to step your starter for your battery to maintain a charge. If the specific gravity in your battery is too low, of course it won't start your car, and your kid is way too little to be push starting you. Of course he hurt his back.
C'mon man. Think this through. :D
 
frazier said:
Bingo - the starter gravity would have been over 1.100! Should have used ~~3 oz. DME (800 ml water and 80 grams extract), to get a starter in the range of 1.035 to 1.040.

This could explain the large amount of trub, as well as the "unsettled" yeast - you sure gave them a lot of work to do!

ETA: And if it turns out that the problem was in converting units, don't sweat it man. NASA once crashed a probe on Mars because someone forgot to convert units. So if it can happen to rocket scientists ...
Click to expand...

This^^^^^^^^

Go by the metric metod. 1000ml water to 100g DME

So for your starter you needed 80 grams. You used almost 230 grams. WAAAAAAAY too much.

Light or extra light DME does not matter for the starter. I usually use what I have around.
 
What exactly have you been posting about for 16,000 posts to even ask this question?

Do you have to make a starter? Do you have to drink beer that tastes good?

My answer is yes to the latter, and because of that, my aswer to the former is also yes.
 
The beer hasn't been made yet. I'm still waiting on the starter to clear. I thought I made that clear in the opening statement.
 
Yep, you are making starters way too hard. You used way too much extract for sure.

Had you done it right, the fermentation would have been done quickly... and besides, even if not done, you can absolutely pitch a starter at high krausen.
 
Cromwell said:
What was your OG? If it's under 1.07, you need to step your starter for your battery to maintain a charge. If the specific gravity in your battery is too low, of course it won't start your car, and your kid is way too little to be push starting you. Of course he hurt his back.
C'mon man. Think this through. :D
Click to expand...

Jesus h christ. He didn't push my car,I never said he did. He wasn't even with me,I was alone. He hurt his back somewhere else,& I have to deal with it. Might've been at school,& he's a big kid for a 14 year old. And you know we're discussing the starter here,right? I was referring to the label instructions on the tube of yeast. The car was incidental because I'd used the bag of DME I was supposed to use in the beer,not the starter. BEER IS NOT BREWED YET. WE ARE ONLY DISCUSSING STARTER,OK???? It just surprised me 20+ miles from home with a break down. I made a mistake & used the wrong stuff. I know it doesn't matter witch DME was used to make the starter. But it matters to the damn recipe that I used the wrong one. I bought enough stuff for two batches & messed them up by using the wrong bag of DME for the starter that I need for the recipe.
I'm just really pissed off that the whole thing blew up in my face at the same. I'm even more frustrated that I didn't think about how much water to DME I used in the small starters I made a couple years ago. I wish I'd have gotten this many responses in last fridays thread when my mind went blank. That would've eased things a bit. I answer so many questions my mind just blowes a fuse every now & then & ye old screen goes blank in the middle of something. Then hardly anyone's on here when I have a serious question that needs an answer asap. I've done these things myself. But I'm gettin old,& my mind is good sometimes & bad the next. I really need to get out from under all this stress houeskidswifecrapbsutilitiesmorecrap & just go where I can loose myself in beer,good food & whatever. And all these responses sound like no one got a word I said......???.......
 
unionrdr said:

The vial says to just warm it up to room temp,shake to suspend yeast & pitch in beers with OG up to 1.070. Or if it's getting old,either way make a starter. Other than being old or bigger than 1.070,don't bother.
Click to expand...

Actually, using 100,000,000,000 cells in a vial / 19000 mL in a 5 gallon batch = 5,263,157 cells per mL, /.75 million cells per mL per degree plato needed for an ale =7 degrees plato or about 1.028 is all a vial or smackpack is good for without a starter.
 
unionrdr said:
The beer hasn't been made yet. I'm still waiting on the starter to clear. I thought I made that clear in the opening statement.
Click to expand...

What I recommend here man, is to start over (pun not really intended) with the starter. Make one to about 1.04, use the 1 g DME to 10 ml of starter vol ratio, that'll get you into the high 1.03s. Pitch a new vial/smackpack, and let it ride. It'll clear in a few day's time, then throw it in the fridge overnight, decant off the spent "beer" and pitch the slurry. It's that simple, you are over thinking this one. :mug:
 
Hey chill man, Cromwell was just trying to lighten the mood. I'm sorry about all your troubles, and of course the answer is, no starter is worth all the other crap you're dealing with right now.

Hope your kid's back gets better - that's the only thing that really matters.
 
Yeah, sorry man. I was just trying to take your mind off your problems for a second.
I've noticed that sometimes bad stuff just all happens at once and it can get overwhelming.
You'll get through it.
 
Yes it did. Being retired is supposed to be all fun & games. then the new guys in the white house & all the bills go up. Thanks to them keeping me broke,investments gone,it's tuff not to be stressed on top of old fart pains 24/7. Then all this with my hobby goin up in smoke.
It's in the fridge now,f'it,I give up. Darn brain farts. Not infected at least. I'll just decant if/when I can & brew the beer & dump it in. Maybe try using the second vial without a starter & compare. They'll both be around OG 1.046 anyway.

Those small starters I made for old dry yeast packets were 2C water to 1/4C DME for a few hours it took the old dry yeast to go through them. Anything larger...idk...mind went blank. Thanks for the help.
 
An easy recipe to remember is half a growler full of water (measures out to roughly 1 liter) and 1 cup of dme (measured by volume, not by weight, because it doesn't need to be perfect), boil for a few minutes and cool it down.

That's all I do for starters.
 
I don't mean to sound like a shrink but take care of your personal stuff man...car, family, etc etc, your beer will always be there. Home brewing should be therapeutic, not the reason why you need therapy.

I am a newbie, and l have been a bit resistant in trying new things like making a starter or advancing to partial mash brewing because of threads like these. I hope it all works out and you make good beer.
 
BansheeRider said:
I don't mean to sound like a shrink but take care of your personal stuff man...car, family, etc etc, your beer will always be there. Home brewing should be therapeutic, not the reason why you need therapy.

I am a newbie, and l have been a bit resistant in trying new things like making a starter or advancing to partial mash brewing because of threads like these. I hope it all works out and you make good beer.
Click to expand...

Sorry for the mad rantings,I never intended to put you or anyone off advancing your brewing methods. But I'm gunna be 57 next month,& even though I keep my mind active on here,I'm finding you can't stop the nefarious father time.
And my brewing hobby's new turns actually were makin me feel better,at least in spirit anyway. I still can't believe I had a brain fart at the moment when it was time to "think through" the amounts of water & DME I was using vs the amounts needed now. This aging thing is def starting to suck.
But,being a 2nd family od sorts on here,I guess I thought it was ok to vent.
Got some runnin done with the dr & all. Got my son hooked up so he doesn't wind up with the troubles I'm having with the 2nd lumbar. Got a large coffee & some smokes. That storm that blasted the great plains is upon us. It's dark & wind dang near blew me over the front of the car as I was unhookin the battery cheager. Blwin bloody hard too.
Anyway,I'm going to use the 2nd vial of the same yeast in a dark lager wanna be (the WLP029 ale/kolsh yeast) gives a clean,lager-like flavor they say. So I'm making a slightly smoky black lager per a member's original dark lager recipe that I tweaked. Both beers are patial mash. I'm still having problems stabilising mash temnps. So the winter coat will insulate the kettle starting at 156F or so,to account for drops during the 1 hour mash.
Isn't it funny how something that's enjoyable can get messed up some times? Don'y put off starters,partial mash & such just because of my misfortunes. I haven't made starters in a couple years,& had a brain fade at the wrong moment,got in a hurry when water boiled,etc. My bad y'all. so keep pushin the bouderies. I'm sure all will come out fine in the end. Such is the life of a home brewer when the fates have their own ideas...:tank:
 
unionrdr said:
Sorry for the mad rantings,I never intended to put you or anyone off advancing your brewing methods. But I'm gunna be 57 next month,& even though I keep my mind active on here,I'm finding you can't stop the nefarious father time.
Click to expand...

Haha. Kids these days...
 
unionrdr said:
Sorry for the mad rantings,I never intended to put you or anyone off advancing your brewing methods. But I'm gunna be 57 next month,& even though I keep my mind active on here,I'm finding you can't stop the nefarious father time.
Click to expand...

If it makes you feel better at all, I have the same kind of moments and I am only 34! On Saturday, I spent over an hour trying to find my digital thermometer that I had used the previous weekend. . .
 
HollisBT said:
An easy recipe to remember is half a growler full of water (measures out to roughly 1 liter) and 1 cup of dme (measured by volume, not by weight, because it doesn't need to be perfect), boil for a few minutes and cool it down.

That's all I do for starters.
Click to expand...

+1

2 liters water to 1 cup dme. 15 min boil with some yeast nutrient. Chill then pitch yeast. Works every time. Boom!
 
unionrdr said:
Jesus h christ. He didn't push my car,I never said he did. He wasn't even with me,I was alone. He hurt his back somewhere else,& I have to deal with it. Might've been at school,& he's a big kid for a 14 year old. And you know we're discussing the starter here,right? I was referring to the label instructions on the tube of yeast. The car was incidental because I'd used the bag of DME I was supposed to use in the beer,not the starter. BEER IS NOT BREWED YET. WE ARE ONLY DISCUSSING STARTER,OK???? It just surprised me 20+ miles from home with a break down. I made a mistake & used the wrong stuff. I know it doesn't matter witch DME was used to make the starter. But it matters to the damn recipe that I used the wrong one. I bought enough stuff for two batches & messed them up by using the wrong bag of DME for the starter that I need for the recipe.
I'm just really pissed off that the whole thing blew up in my face at the same. I'm even more frustrated that I didn't think about how much water to DME I used in the small starters I made a couple years ago. I wish I'd have gotten this many responses in last fridays thread when my mind went blank. That would've eased things a bit. I answer so many questions my mind just blowes a fuse every now & then & ye old screen goes blank in the middle of something. Then hardly anyone's on here when I have a serious question that needs an answer asap. I've done these things myself. But I'm gettin old,& my mind is good sometimes & bad the next. I really need to get out from under all this stress houeskidswifecrapbsutilitiesmorecrap & just go where I can loose myself in beer,good food & whatever. And all these responses sound like no one got a word I said......???.......
Click to expand...

Man and I thought I had issues. Hope everything works out. Bad brew days can be very aggravating.
 
Wow... really just wow.

You know what bro, scrap that whole thing and dig out that old pack of US-05 from the back of the fridge and throw it in there dry. Crack a yourself a nice brewski and have a shot of bourbon. Best of luck to ya.
 
Jesus. I'm so confused.

How is your starter even carbonated?

How did you manage to make such a high gravity starter?

Why would you make a starter for a packet of dry yeast?

How did the President make your investments disappear?

Go back to what you know. Clearly it's been working well enough for you up until now. Come back to starters when you're ready.
 
unionrdr said:
^^This was the question I asked on the 8th when I wanted to get a starter going. I made real small ones to get old dry yeast going. but never the proper size,amount,whatever.
So let's try this again. I made a thread asking how much DME to 800mL of water. took a while,not much activity. So I took a guess. Then I reallized too late that I had grabbed the wrong bag of DME. I grabbed the light needed for the beer I'm starting the yeast for! Instead of the extra light I had a lil extra of,get it now? So I had to take the city streets to get to the lhbs in westlake cause a Bad VSS is drainin the battery,NO RESERVE POWER. But I didn't know how bad it was till I got some more DME & came out to go home.Car won't start,& i'm 20 some miles from home. And all because I used the wrong bag to make the starter that now won't settle out. It really does look like I got less yeast out then went in. And instead of brewin my beer,I hafta take my youngest to the dr since he said he hurt his back. I've got that & more piled up on me latey. When one thing goes wrong,the whole thing goes poof. And don't even get me started on that bill paddin elec co.
Click to expand...

So this whole thread is not because making starters are hard or unneeded, but because you didn't read a label?
 

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