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Old 11-17-2011, 06:03 PM   #11
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Oh yea, if you're using dry yeast don't use a starter. You should rehydrate your yeast in ONLY WATER. NO SUGAR. Water should be ~80-100F, and have no sugar in it.

The reason you don't want sugar or anything else in your water for rehydrating dry yeast is because the yeast are going to be sucking up all the water they can get their hands on and their cell walls will be super porous to facilitate that. That means anything that is in solution will get directly into the cells. You don't want sugar being sucked up inside the cells without it being properly handled by the yeast- it screws up their osmotic equilibrium and puts them into stress mode right away.

Dry yeast doesn't need a starter because there are plenty of cells in one package when properly rehydrated and making a starter would only deplete the energy reserves the manufacturers helped the yeast create.



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Old 11-17-2011, 06:15 PM   #12
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The nutrients they put on the yeast is to keep them more viable during transport & storage. I've had very vigorous initial fermentation with dry yeast in starters,or re-hydrated in water with a small amount of dextrose. Even pro chefs I've seen proof yeast with water & sugar.
And I use way less comparatively then they do. I think my problem is looking like needing to pitch more yeast. Some folks have said that my Burton ale,for instance,took too long to get down to a stable FG of 1,018 from OG1.065 in 4 weeks. Some claimed to be able to get an OG 1.080+ down to FG in only 7 days. I still find that hard to believe unless one is pitching a pound or two of yeast.
I noticed that just re-hydrating yeast in plain water doesn't get them as active as when 1 or 2 tsp of dextrose is added to 2C of water for them to work in 20-30 minutes.


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Old 11-17-2011, 10:27 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unionrdr View Post
The nutrients they put on the yeast is to keep them more viable during transport & storage.
Sorry Unionrdr, I don't believe that's true. I'm no expert on dry yeast, but to my knowledge, they are dormant until rehydrated, so no need for nutrients while they are in storage. What Daksin stated has also always been my understanding. I wouldn't compare what chefs do for bread to beer making; what works for one doesn't necessarily translate to the other.

The fact that you've done it this way, perhaps successfully, doesn't mean that should be a recommended method. Do it this way repeatedly, and win a competition with a beer made this way, then it would be more appropriate. If you started a thread with that experiment, I'd definately follow it.

Otherwise, IMHO, it is important to advise beginners to follow the generally accepted principles and guidelines, so that they have the best possible chance of a successful brewing experience, and making a beer that tastes as it should.

JMHO, YMMV.
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Old 11-18-2011, 01:15 PM   #14
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If everyone who ever brewed with that mindset,no new methods would ever come to light,imo. I just like to experiment with what can work. Not just normally excepted methods. You can't learn if you don't try new things,or re-apply old ones from other recipe,cookin,baking,etc.
A person doesn't have to be a multiple world champion to have knowledge. As Jimi Hendrix once said,you can learn something from anybody.
I picked up what I said about the nutrient thing on the cooper's forum some time ago. But whatever. It's worked very well so far. But so far as re-hydrating/starter methods are concerned,I'm seeing that pitch rate is more important than how they are "woken up" so to say. I've been ragged on for some time about these sort of things. And low & behold,some of those books with "excepted theories" are changing their tone from the comments I've read on here. So I'm def not wrong or alone,just thinking/experimenting for myself as to what really works,& what doesn't. So I'm not trying to miss-lead anyone. Just passing on what's worked for me more than a few times.
I also don't like being someone's steppin stone by makin me look wrong,a fool,or both. I've never passed on anything but the truth.Actually,this was a little weird to think of; A starter with no malt in it? I just jumped in with what I've seen work more for me,that's all...
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Old 11-18-2011, 04:29 PM   #15
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I don't want to drag out the OP's thread, so I'll end my comments on this here.

Unionrdr, it was/is not my intent to put you down in any way. And I think experimentation is great. What I am saying is that talk of an experimental method belongs in another thread. By current conventions both methods you're advising on are wrong. 1. we don't make starters with refined sugars, and 2. we don't make starters for dry yeast. Yes we change these conventions by experimentation, and some things have changed since I started making beer 21 years ago. But, by your own admission,you have only been brewing beer for a short time, therefore you haven't done this enough for real scientific experimentation and to change the convention.

The OP asked if he could use dextrose instead of malt for a yeast starter. The correct answer is that he could, but he is risking getting off flavors by doing so. He was also given good suggestions on how to still make it happen without having to go buy extra malt. Telling him about adding dextrose to dry yeast is just confusing the issue.

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Old 11-18-2011, 04:57 PM   #16
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I started making wine when I was 15 or so through my 20's. So it's not the same as brewing,true. But I don't think it's logical to have to do something for 20 million years for it to prove out. Scientists don't take 20 years with the same experiment to prove it out every single time.
It is what it is. It works,& that's it. What I was also trying to say is that I need to work on how much yeast in the case for re-hydrating would actually be right vs what they say should be right. At my age I've seen that it doesn't take a genius or years of experience to hit on a workable idea that may be just as good or better than convention. Even though that can help,obviously. But playing the rookie card isn't exactly worldly either.
I've been around this block at Ford for more years than I care to remember. I made it to middle management,was told I didn't need leadership training. So that should show something of my thought processes qualifications,at least. Like Tupoc,if ya don't know me,don't judge me. Not trying to be a troll. I didn't start this,but someone always does. I'm done.


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