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Old 08-19-2012, 10:34 PM   #1
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Default Sour Brews

Hello, I wanted to try brewing herb brews instead of using hops, but they were coming out sour, I thought the herbs were making my brews sour.

So I just did an experiment 3 gallons of wort divided into 3 one gallon batches then each was boiled for 60 min, 1st batch had herbs in it, 2nd batch had hops in it, 3rd batch had nothing in it, just straight wort.

I sanitized everything then after the boil I transferred to 3 separate fermenters, I aerated each and added 1/3 of a single pack of yeast using different spoons in each batch, then controlled fermenting temps for 3 weeks.

Today I bottled them and sampled each, all 3 are sour, same taste in all 3, their is no sign of infection what so ever in any of these brews, but Im pretty sure all my brewing equipment is infected.

I think my wife and I (through a lengthy discussion) have figured out what caused this sourness in every brew, the first herb brew I attempted I also used a liquid saison yeast # 3724, it was shipped in a freezer pack, after traveling for 3 days it sat in a UPS truck for 2 1/2 more days at 110 deg, who knows how hot it was in this truck during that time.

A word of warning to all, if your cold pack is hot when it gets to your door, I would think twice about using that yeast.

BTW the Sour Saison makes a good shandy with tonic water.

I hope this post saves others the time and frustration I have been through.

Any comments or questions are welcome.

Cheers

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Old 08-19-2012, 10:42 PM   #2
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A yeast pack shipped hot will have reduced viability, but it most likely won't mutate into a lacto or other acid producing creature. And if that were possible, there's no way 2 packs would do the same thing. There's must be another factor involved.

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Old 08-19-2012, 10:45 PM   #3
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high temps should not cause "mutations" in yeast cells
people on here can vouch that they rehydrate with 100-110 water so i dont think thats your problem

i think your unfamiler with this strain of yeast. this is from wyeasts website...

This strain is the classic farmhouse ale yeast. A traditional yeast that is spicy with complex aromatics, including bubble gum. It is very tart and dry on the palate with a mild fruitiness. Expect a crisp, mildly acidic finish that will benefit from elevated fermentation temperatures

make sure you know what strain your brewing with before you use it and know what to expect i would think what your tasting is normal for this strain of yeast

Just my .02

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Old 08-20-2012, 03:17 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnyhitch1 View Post
high temps should not cause "mutations" in yeast cells
people on here can vouch that they rehydrate with 100-110 water so i dont think thats your problem

i think your unfamiler with this strain of yeast. this is from wyeasts website...

This strain is the classic farmhouse ale yeast. A traditional yeast that is spicy with complex aromatics, including bubble gum. It is very tart and dry on the palate with a mild fruitiness. Expect a crisp, mildly acidic finish that will benefit from elevated fermentation temperatures

make sure you know what strain your brewing with before you use it and know what to expect i would think what your tasting is normal for this strain of yeast

Just my .02
I would agree with you, but and theres always a but, lol I have 2 batches of brew using 05 yeast that have that same sour flavor that the saison have, both brewed after the saison one with hops and one with herbs, thats why I did the test.

it all comes back to that same batch of brew, It is very common for it to get to 150+ in a car here in Arizona, that temp for 2 + days ? kinda extreme for any yeast I would think.

Or I just got an infection some how, and I have tried saison brews before I brewed this one, there one of those brews that the more I have them the more I seem to like them.

I should have given more information on my OP

Cheers
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I have spent more $ on brewing equipment than my truck cost!

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Things come and go. Good beer will live on for ever ! WileECoyote

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Old 08-20-2012, 03:20 AM   #5
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All these brews taste like fresh squeezed very sour lemon-aid.

Anyone have this flavor outcome on any of your brews?

Thanks

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I have spent more $ on brewing equipment than my truck cost!

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Old 08-20-2012, 12:08 PM   #6
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You have an infection somewhere amongst your gear. I guarantee it was not due to high temps of the yeast. The introduction just coincided with that batch apparently. Need to go back through your sanitation process and see what you're missing.

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Old 08-20-2012, 03:15 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quaker View Post
You have an infection somewhere amongst your gear. I guarantee it was not due to high temps of the yeast. The introduction just coincided with that batch apparently. Need to go back through your sanitation process and see what you're missing.
Hello, I agree that I have an infection, will nuking everything with bleach kill this off? or should I just order all new equipment?

I guess I could just order another groupon kit from midwest since thats how the majority of my equipment was acquired to begin with?

Thanks
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WileECoyote
Naked Brew

Bartender Ill have what the gentleman on the floor is drinking.

I have spent more $ on brewing equipment than my truck cost!

Green beer sucks, let it age/condition/finish and become great before drinking it. WileECoyote

Good/Great beer takes time! if you want a quick beer go to the store or bar!

Things come and go. Good beer will live on for ever ! WileECoyote

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Old 08-20-2012, 03:38 PM   #8
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I imagine there is something else going on. Beers usually do not sour that fast, whether they are intentionally soured or infected.

What's your water source? Are you brewing from kits? If so, what kits? If not, what are your recipes? What are you cleaning with? What are you sanitizing with? What is your brew process? How do you cool wort?

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Old 08-20-2012, 03:53 PM   #9
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If you have an infection, I'd throw out all soft plastics and nuke the rest of your equipment with a PBW/Bleach/Iodophor/StarSan combo in series (not at the same time unless you have a death wish). It doesn't necessarily sound like an infection though - the only candidate I can think of is lactobacillus, and most strains absolutely can't stand hops.
Beers don't turn sour very quickly unless you do a sour mash, and that's a very deliberate process - boiled wort can sit in a sealed and sanitized container for days without yeast activity and still be fine. And all souring infections have telltale visible signs. I suspect that it is a process error. Start by answering ReverseApacheMaster's question, and elaborate on each step as necessary.

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Old 08-20-2012, 04:01 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WileECoyote View Post
I
it all comes back to that same batch of brew, It is very common for it to get to 150+ in a car here in Arizona, that temp for 2 + days ? kinda extreme for any yeast I would think.
As it has been said before, heat does not MUTATE yeast cells into different species of yeast cells. Does it kill yeast? (aka reduce viability) Yes. Does it turn Sacc into Lacto or Pedio?? Absolutely not.

You problem is in you process/equipment, not your mostly dead yeast.
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