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Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Beginners Beer Brewing Forum > Small Lager as Starter for Large Lager
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Old 04-02-2013, 09:07 PM   #1
sicklesr
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Default Small Lager as Starter for Large Lager

I want to do a 10 gallon batch of a big lager (Dopplebock OG = 1.090). MrMatly says I'll need a 8L starter for this. I figure if I'm going to use two gallons and the timeframe to start that, I might as well create a smaller 5 gallon (Light American Premium = 1.052 OG) lager and use that yeast.

If that's a possible solution, what do you guys think of these two recipes, and the process. I brew with a 20 gallon E-BIAB setup.

Small Lager (5 gallon):
8lb US 2row
1lb Munich
1lb Vienna
Mash at 152* for 90 Minutes
Boil 90 Minutes
1 oz Tettnang @ 90 Min
0.5oz Tettnang @ 30 Min
0.5oz Tettnang @ 15 Min
OG = 1.052
IBU = 23

Pitch with 2 vials of WLP830, Ferment at 50-55*. Once the gravity hits ~1.022, i'll raise the temp to 63-65* and do my diacetyl rest for 48 hours. I will then rack to a secondary, and lager at 35* for however long I can wait. At the end of the diacetyl rest, I will brew the Large Lager, and (after cooling) pour directly onto the yeast left behind from the primary.

Large Lager (10 Gallon):
17lb Munich
17lb Vienna
1lb Debittered Black (for Color)
Mash @ 152 for 90 Minutes
Boil for 90 Minutes
3oz Tettnang @ 90 Min
1 oz Hallertau @ 15 Min
1 oz Hallertau @ 0 Min
OG = 1.088
IBU = 18


What says you? Will this work like creating a large starter? How do the recipes look?

Thanks in adavnce!

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Primary || Hop Face Punch ||
Secondary || "Intentional" Sour Pumpkin Ale ||
Bottles || Big Brew Day Belgian, Apline Spring Clone, Rooibos Red Ale, Hudson Valley Hard Cider, "First" All Grain Stout, Rye Pale Ale ||
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Old 04-02-2013, 09:33 PM   #2
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Cheers to a fellow NY brewer!! Sounds reasonable, however, do you plan on drinking your starter batches? Seems like you are but if you are solely focusing on yeast propagation, there is no need for hops in the starter, it is actually detrimental if you plan on reusing the yeast if they are slicked in hop oils. The problem with waiting for fermentation to complete, then pitching on that, is that you aren't going to have the yeast at its most active state. That cake on bottom, especially with lager yeast is going to be the most highly flocculent cells that quickly did their work and dropped off. The most highly-attenuative yeasts will be siphoned off and still in the beer that you racked off the cake. Much of the cake may be dormant or dead and not be of high vitality.

If it was me I would do a stepped starter. In the white labs documents I've read they recommend doing stepped starters in tens. I.e. start with 10mL go to 100mL, 1L, etc. If MrMalty says you need 8L, I would start with a 2L simple DME starter, once it's very active in 24-48 hours I would decant a bit then pour it into another 2 gallon DME starter in a carboy or bucket. I'm guessing you don't have an 8L erlenmeyer flask (me neither), so I would just keep the biggest vessel in the kitchen where it's warm and just shake the carboy whenever you walk by. Big Doppelbocks can be a bear, the one I made this year I did 2 separate sets of stepped starters, one at my house and another at my buddies. Good luck!

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Old 04-02-2013, 09:38 PM   #3
sicklesr
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At first I planned on only doing the starter, but I figured with the time and energy in that, I might as well just do a smaller beer.

If people here think I'll be selling the dopple short, then I'll most def just do the 8L starter.

Opinions are always welcome!

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Secondary || "Intentional" Sour Pumpkin Ale ||
Bottles || Big Brew Day Belgian, Apline Spring Clone, Rooibos Red Ale, Hudson Valley Hard Cider, "First" All Grain Stout, Rye Pale Ale ||
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Old 04-03-2013, 04:33 AM   #4
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Belgians have been using yeasts to make small beers, then re-pitching them to huge beers for decades. As long as the small beer style isn't way out of line from the big beer style this is a great plan.

I might wash the yeast just to get out the trub, but otherwise I think this a good plan.

I did the same for a Bock / Doppelbock, but chickened out and added a vial, didn't want to waste all that money on grains with an under attenuated doppelbock. Came out awesome incidentally.

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Old 04-03-2013, 04:47 PM   #5
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Appreciated. I think I'll give it a shot unless I hear otherwise.

I'm picking up 50lbs of 2row, and 25lbs of both Munich and Vienna on Friday. Pretty excited for my first group buy.

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Primary || Hop Face Punch ||
Secondary || "Intentional" Sour Pumpkin Ale ||
Bottles || Big Brew Day Belgian, Apline Spring Clone, Rooibos Red Ale, Hudson Valley Hard Cider, "First" All Grain Stout, Rye Pale Ale ||
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Old 04-16-2013, 05:18 PM   #6
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Actually,

I was just gifted a 10L Biotainer from work. The warehouse had accidentally cut open the bag that the sterile biotainer was in, and can no longer be used for processing. I'll probably just do the 8L starter using this and my DIY stirplate.

Probrewer's Yeast Calc shows me:
2L 1.040 Starter w/ 2 vials of WLP830 Yeast (1/2lb of DME in 2L)
Step Up to
8L 1.040 Starter (1.5lb of DME in 6L + 2L existing Starter)

Does anyone have an idea of how long these two steps will take fermenting at room temprature (~70*F)?

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Arsenal City Brewing
Watervliet, NY

Primary || Hop Face Punch ||
Secondary || "Intentional" Sour Pumpkin Ale ||
Bottles || Big Brew Day Belgian, Apline Spring Clone, Rooibos Red Ale, Hudson Valley Hard Cider, "First" All Grain Stout, Rye Pale Ale ||
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