Secondary necessary for bulk aging?

I understand that for most brews, you can generally forgo a secondary and just leave the beer in primary for a month (or longer) without getting autolysis, etc. But I'm planning on brewing a RIS soon, and it seems that many people bulk age for 6+ months. That's probably too long to leave in primary, right? Should I definitely rack to a secondary if I want to bulk age for >3 months?

I would. I would use glass (or stainless) for that length of time too.

I have left mine in the primary for 2 months, and I didn't notice any bad things, but yes I would rack to a secondary glass or stainless, because plastic can harbor bacteria, and for that length of time you have to be careful.

+1 to the above ^^^^

The longer you leave the beer on the yeast cake the more impact the flavors in the yeast will have on your beer. A few weeks doesn't seem to make much difference to most home brewers. Although a couple pro brewers I know pull the beer off the yeast just as soon as fermentation is finished to preserve the brightness of the beer's flavor. Personal preference there but I tend to give some cred to the pros' ideas.

Also, oxidization becomes a concern incrementally with increased in time in the fermenter. Glass and stainless are completely impervious to o2 permeation. PET carboys are not impermeable. Also, your airlock becomes a potential point of entry for o2. You can minimize this by reducing the surface area of beer exposed to o2. Use a 5 gal. glass carboy and fill it clear into the neck.

Don't forget, if this is your first RIS, that your yeast will probably be exhausted and may not have the vitality needed to carbonate the beer. Add a half pack or so of a neutral dry yeast to the bottling bucket to avoid flat beer.

Cheers!

I've got an RIS in my primary right now. After looking into it for a little, I came to the same conclusion as you. I plan to leave it in there for roughly one month total, then to rack it over to my newly acquired secondary (never needed one before), to age for another 3-4 months before bottling it up.

Thanks, everyone! I'll plan on racking it into my glass carboy, then.

Puddlethumper said:

+1 to the above ^^^^



The longer you leave the beer on the yeast cake the more impact the flavors in the yeast will have on your beer. A few weeks doesn't seem to make much difference to most home brewers. Although a couple pro brewers I know pull the beer off the yeast just as soon as fermentation is finished to preserve the brightness of the beer's flavor. Personal preference there but I tend to give some cred to the pros' ideas.

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Be careful reading into pros practices. They often do things for very different reasons than home brewers. For them it's all about cost and quick turn around time. They pull the yeast early because time is money, and they pitch it active strait into the next batch. It's not about "brightness", whatever that is. In fact, most experienced brewers feel beer flavor BENEFITS from resting on the yeast after fermentation.

That said, to the OP, while sitting on the yeast for a few weeks may be beneficial, a few months could lead to off flavors. When bulk aging, transfer away!!



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Demus said:

Be careful reading into pros practices. They often do things for very different reasons than home brewers.......
It's not about "brightness", whatever that is.

In fact, most experienced brewers feel beer flavor BENEFITS from resting on the yeast after fermentation.

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Just going by what I learned through conversations with them, and I have no reason to doubt their honesty.

In turn I would caution you to avoid making broad statements like "In fact, most experienced brewers" which is not a fact at all. A more correct statement would have been "many experienced brewers".

A little time spent following the conversations on this forum and others reveals there are many experienced brewers who do not think that its OK to leave the beer on the yeast for weeks at a time. IMO there are two camps here, one that likes the flavor that is imparted by lengthy exposure to the yeast and those who don't care for those flavors. That is the only way to explain why a beer left on the yeast for a couple of months tastes great to one person and not-so-great to the next. It is all a matter of taste and personal preference.

A third camp might be those who claim lengthy exposure to the yeast is needed to clean up "off flavors". Proper temperature control during fermentation will prevent "off flavors" from forming in the first place. So this group should be more correctly identified as those who don't (or can't) control fermentation temperatures very well.

Sorry I didn't mean to imply they weren't honest, just that their goals in brewing differ from those of most (many? ;-)) home brewers. I'm not saying you can't learn from a professional brewer, but what makes sense on a 30 barrel system doesn't always hold true by the carboy...


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If you are going to age it for that long, then yes, I would probably rack to secondary.
However, are we sure that this beer needs it?
I would say to give it extra time in primary, maybe a month or so, then when you're sure that the gravity is stable, taste it and see if you think it would benefit from longer aging.
If so, go to secondary or if not, then bottle.

Demus said:

Sorry I didn't mean to imply they weren't honest, just that their goals in brewing differ from those of most (many? ;-)) home brewers. I'm not saying you can't learn from a professional brewer, but what makes sense on a 30 barrel system doesn't always hold true by the carboy...

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I appreciate your point of view. And yes, there definitely will be differences between a big system and ours. But there remain many similarities that are worth paying attention to.

Given the opportunity, I would suggest all home brewers pick up a copy of David Miller's "Brew Like a Pro".

Miller was quite the "officianado of home brewing" back in the late 1980's- early 1990's (much like Palmer is today). Like Palmer, he wrote the "go to" book on home brewing of that era. (Palmer probably read it as he learned to brew.) Miller dropped out of home brewing and became a pro brewer in a major micro-brewery for a dozen years or so. After deciding that it was a young man's job he retired from that work. Eventually he decided to return to home brewing bringing with him the lessons he had learned as a pro brewer.

I'll leave it to you to read it and decide for yourself, but much of what he wrote makes a lot of sense (to me). In some points he bucks the current "group think" we often encounter on these forums. But since it makes sense and other pro brewers I have spoken to are thinking the same way, I have decided to listen to them instead of the "group think".

I'm all for anti-group think. I'll check it out, thanks!


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IMHO you just shouldn't tie up a primary for that long. I'd rather go glass in crate secondary and forget it.

Demus said:

I'm all for anti-group think. I'll check it out, thanks!

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If you do get a copy and read it I'd like to learn your take on his views. My beers have been better for reading it, but then I'm just another weekend hack like most of us here.

Cheers!

jsun said:

I understand that for most brews, you can generally forgo a secondary and just leave the beer in primary for a month (or longer) without getting autolysis, etc. But I'm planning on brewing a RIS soon, and it seems that many people bulk age for 6+ months. That's probably too long to leave in primary, right? Should I definitely rack to a secondary if I want to bulk age for >3 months?

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You can also bulk age it in a keg too, that is if you have a keg !

Cheers

Guys i'm following the conversation and its great info. Being a newbie though i am having a little difficulty with the terminology. Not necessarily in your chat but i hear the terms 'secondary fermenting', 'bottle conditioning' and 'aging in a secondary' etc etc. I am following a recipe that tells me to ferment at 22deg celsius and condition at 12 degrees for 6 weeks.

If i ferment in a primary then when the fermentation slows right down (1-2weeks), transfer to a secondary for several weeks.... Am i now in the conditioning stage and therefore need to lower the temp?

When i then move from the secondary to bottles (after 6 weeks lets say) ...am i now conditioning the beer? or aging it? Or has the conditioning finished and i am merely just carbonating.

I apologise for being so green but i mainly ask as i need to know at which point to lower my temps.

Hope this is fitting with the current thread also.

Banter said:

Guys i'm following the conversation and its great info. Being a newbie though i am having a little difficulty with the terminology. Not necessarily in your chat but i hear the terms 'secondary fermenting', 'bottle conditioning' and 'aging in a secondary' etc etc. I am following a recipe that tells me to ferment at 22deg celsius and condition at 12 degrees for 6 weeks.

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I'm slightly concerned that you have bad directions... 22 degrees is a bit hot, unless your doing a Saison or some type of Belgian Ale (in which case, ignore me, heh). 22C/72F tends to be right on the upper limit of most yeast, if not slightly above their ideal temperature range. While this will make sure that you're fermentation will go pretty fast, it doesn't mean it'll give you the best beer... and if you pitch at 22, you might wake up the next morning to find out that it's managed to heat itself up to 26 once fermentation took off.

Banter said:

If i ferment in a primary then when the fermentation slows right down (1-2weeks), transfer to a secondary for several weeks.... Am i now in the conditioning stage and therefore need to lower the temp?

When i then move from the secondary to bottles (after 6 weeks lets say) ...am i now conditioning the beer? or aging it? Or has the conditioning finished and i am merely just carbonating.

I apologise for being so green but i mainly ask as i need to know at which point to lower my temps.

Hope this is fitting with the current thread also.

Click to expand...

You'll find that a lot of people on these forums (myself included) don't bother with secondary fermentation for a number of reasons. First off though, the term is a bit misleading, as generally you transfer to your secondary only once fermentation is finished. The older school of thought on this is that it was bad to leave your beer on the trub (all the yeast and other gunk sitting at the bottom of your primary) for very long, and that it also helped to clarify your beer. The one drawback is that it lead to a slight increased chance of contamination.

We've seen learned that leaving your beer in the primary for 4-5 weeks won't really do any harm at all, and people who only use a primary will tell you that their beer clears just fine... others do still swear by using a secondary though, and it's one of those things that comes down to personal preference really. I personally don't bother with them (unless I need to, as I'll be bulk aging a Russian Imperial Stout for a few months soon, or when adding something like oak or fruit), as it's just an extra step that I don't want to bother with, heh.

Generally once fermentation finishes, the yeast continue to work away, cleaning up their by-products and whatnot. For me, this is when my beer is conditioning. I don't really think cool temperatures are needed, unless you're going to be conditioning them for a long time.

A lot of people here go with a 3/3/1 method, or system. Three weeks primary, three weeks bottle conditioning, and one week in the fridge. The three weeks in the primary let fermentation finish, and everything to clean up nicely. Then three weeks bottled at about 70-75, letting the beer carb up properly, and then one week in the fridge to cool down, clear up and be ready to drink. This tends to work really well when you're first starting out, since new people often underpitch the amount of yeast that's needed, and don't have great fermentation control, so the longer times let everything clean up as much as possible. If you're pitching rates are bang on, and you have good temperature control, you could speed things up considerably. This, of course, also comes down to how "big" your beer is. Higher ABV beers will need more time than lower ABV beers...

Banter said:

If i ferment in a primary then when the fermentation slows right down (1-2weeks), transfer to a secondary for several weeks.... Am i now in the conditioning stage and therefore need to lower the temp?

When i then move from the secondary to bottles (after 6 weeks lets say) ...am i now conditioning the beer? or aging it? Or has the conditioning finished and i am merely just carbonating.

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Great questions and exactly why this forum exists. And I am glad someone here speaks Celsius because I sure didn't catch that high temperature issue!

You have it figured pretty correctly. Fermentation may take anywhere from 1 - 2 weeks depending on the grain bill, yeast strain and temperatures. Fermentation is finished when you are at or very near the recipe's projected FG and have gotten the same readings at least 3 days in a row.

Conditioning is the process of allowing the flavors of the beer to settle down, to "marry" if you will. Some beers benefit from a few weeks of conditioning or no conditioning time at all. Conditioning temperatures are usually about the same as fermentation temperatures. Conditioning can take place in the primary fermenter, as suggested above, in a secondary vessel such as a 5 gal. carboy, or in the bottle. You'll hear a bunch of differing ideas as to what is best. IMO best technique probably varies with the beer and how your system is set up.

Aging is the intentional repackaging of the beer to a secondary vessel where o2 permeation can be minimized. The beer is held at cellaring temperatures (50-55F) and may go for a few weeks to a year or more as with some barleywines. Aging may sometimes be done in a cask for added flavor and character.

Carbonating occurs only after the beer has been packaged. Carbonating in the bottle with priming sugar requires temperatures similar to fermentation temps, usually 68-72F. These temperatures are needed to activate the yeast in the beer. It is this re-fermentation if you will that results in the co2 that carbonates the beer. This step only requires 10-14 days for most beers.

I hope this helps.

Cheers!

Banter said:

Guys i'm following the conversation and its great info. Being a newbie though i am having a little difficulty with the terminology. Not necessarily in your chat but i hear the terms 'secondary fermenting', 'bottle conditioning' and 'aging in a secondary' etc etc. I am following a recipe that tells me to ferment at 22deg celsius and condition at 12 degrees for 6 weeks.

If i ferment in a primary then when the fermentation slows right down (1-2weeks), transfer to a secondary for several weeks.... Am i now in the conditioning stage and therefore need to lower the temp?

When i then move from the secondary to bottles (after 6 weeks lets say) ...am i now conditioning the beer? or aging it? Or has the conditioning finished and i am merely just carbonating.

I apologise for being so green but i mainly ask as i need to know at which point to lower my temps.

Hope this is fitting with the current thread also.

Click to expand...

There are many different preferences for many different aspects of brewing. Glass vs Plastic, Secondary vs Long Primary, etc. There isn't one simple answer to a lot of these kinds of questions. Sometimes people will do just what works for them, because the difference in OVERALL quality might not suffer enough to be noticeable.

It's generally considered the primary fermentation when the yeast consume the sugars and certain other fermentables in the wort. After that, there is a short "Clean-up" phase where the yeast consume some of the compounds that they produces during the primary, such as Diacetyl. in general these are ALWAYS undesirable, however off flavors for one style of beer may be a characteristic of other styles.

So, to answer your question, I assume you are referring to a kit with written instructions, or some other generic recipe. In this case you can forget a specific time period. The *best* option is to make your wort the best it can be for the yeast and give them a temperature that is best for making better beer. 71F (22C) is just a bit high for most ale yeast IMO. I would shoot for 62 ambient, which might be 65 or slightly higher when the yeast get going. Try to keep that temp steady until the primary is over.

After that you will get various advice. Depending on the style I doubt 6 weeks is necessary. A LAGER will need a 50 degree primary and a short 2-3 day D-rest (Diacetyl Rest for cleaning up the stuff I mentioned) and then dropping the temp down close to freezing for 6-8 weeks or so (Lagering).

Some Ale yeast will work good with a cool ferment (65 or slightly lower) and then a rack to secondary for an extended period, like 6 weeks. They are styles like Kolsch, which are meant to emulate lagers.

This time is also spent clearing the beer, and allowing the residual yeast (There is still a LOT of yeast suspended in the beer in a secondary) to do more cleaning up. Most beer can stand a bit of clearing. If you are bottling, a couple of weeks at basement temps might work fine. If you have fridge space, chilling it will expedite the clearing process.

So how much time it takes to age your beer depending on:

The Style
The temperature
The yeast strain
Packaging
Your Preference.

Frankly, I've had beers that were not supposed to need aging taste better in the keg 4+ weeks after packaging, and other beers that are supposed to be lagered taste just great after a couple of weeks. A lot of it depends on the variables and how you apply your methods.

So to get a right answer, you would need to describe the style and the yeast you are using. For a common ale recipe I'd say about 2 weeks in primary at 62-65F (Warming up as it finishes fermenting) and either rack to a secondary if you like, or just leave it in the primary for another 2-4 weeks. If you are bottling, then skip the aging process and bottle as soon as it's clear enough for your tastes.

For lagers, it's a much longer, cooler fermentation process.

First off, thanks to all 3 of you KepowOb, Puddlethumper and Homercidal for more than covering what I wanted to know. I think I definitely have a good grasp now of fermentation and that by transferring to a secondary I can still be ‘fermenting’. I really wasn't clear on whether this was ‘conditioning’ but now it’s clarified. So from your descriptions above I now know that on previous kits I have been fermenting in a primary followed by secondary ‘fermenting’ then ‘conditioning’ in bottles whilst also carbonating. I did let some age by accident and found a significant difference after 2 months but not much beyond that. That was a pretty average amber ale.

I am brewing in Singapore and so my main problem has been temps. My house is usually between 26 and 40degC and outside is 28-38 usually. Hence I wanted to be clear on what this recipe was referring to for the temps. (I now have a PID set up and can regulate a fridge outside…loving the science experiments so far)

Currently I am trying to learn small batch (2*1 gallon growlers) all grain brewing. It’s my first time and you are spot on..i am brewing a Belgian blonde ale target gravity was 1.07 with final 1.014 using Wyeast 1388. I hit 1.062 and am yet to find out the final gravity as I am on day 2 of fermentation. ( I am not happy with this but it’s my first all grain and I think I was a little high on the mash temp) It’s still bubbling like a witches cauldron in there so I have some way to go. I think i’ll try conditioning 1 growler in a secondary and the other I will bottle and see the difference.

The recipe said to ferment at 22deg with wyeast 1388 then ‘condition’ for 6 weeks at 12deg. Every beer in the book has a conditioning temp of 12 degrees (or 3 degrees for lagers). I think by conditioning they are in fact referring to aging and likely they mean the minimum time to age before drinking.

Thanks again for the information. It is somewhat prophetic as the next beer I have lined up is a lager…and you have already answered all my questions on temps and process there. I am going to take the recipe I have and follow your instructions and see how I go.

Just to add my thoughts:

It's probably safest to get any beer off the yeast cake if you're going to let it age for greater than 4-5 weeks, to prevent the dead yeast from negatively impacting the beer's flavor.

I can think of one exception...The yeast cake can be beneficial if you are doing a true secondary fermentation with wild yeast (Brettanomyces) and bacteria (pedio and /or lacto) for an 'extended' period (>1 yr) because the Brett will use the dead yeast as a nutrient for the extended fermentation that they will go through in conjunction with the bacteria.

Well for the fermentation part of this batch I think I am going to move at least one to secondary as I want to try my hand at cleaning some yeast and using it again. Yet another thing I haven't tried yet.

At the moment it's as much about learning the processes and techniques as it is drinking the product. Maybe I should have chosen a lower gravity beer but after all this work I'd like to end up with a style I like.