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Old 01-02-2013, 12:53 PM   #51
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The trouble with such debates is there's always several ways that "work". BansheeRider's post asked a question about rehydration and he indicated being a new brewer. You have to realize, you will often get as many answers as there are members on this forum! The info I have stated on here comes from the book "Yeast", written by Chris White of White Labs and Jamil Zainisheff, homebrewer turned commercial brewer. You can certainly try every method folks swear by, but it's going to take you a long time. There are so many variables involved with yeast, and every one of them effects the final results. My guess is mammokraken has either low enough gravity beer that killing half of the cells in a dry yeast pack didn't have a negative effect. Short lag time isn't the only indicator of a healthy ferment. In fact, it probably means under aeration because yeast absorb oxygen in the lag phase, and short one could indicate a low oxygen wort.
As far as your concerns over temperature "shocking" the yeast, there really is none. By the time 15 minutes has past the half cup of water (now creamy yeast) has cooled to room temperature. It's now the temperature of the wort you and your yeast are concerned with. It should be in the 60's for most ale yeast strains. It's not that warmer temperatures harm the yeast; this is another misconception. It's that yeast produce more off flavor compounds at higher fermentation temperatures. Yeast actually "like" warmer temperatures as indicated by faster fermentation, but you won't like the beer they produce! Enjoy your brewing, and the debates!!! Welcome to brewing!!!

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Old 01-02-2013, 08:19 PM   #52
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My guess is mammokraken has either low enough gravity beer that killing half of the cells in a dry yeast pack didn't have a negative effect. Short lag time isn't the only indicator of a healthy ferment. In fact, it probably means under aeration because yeast absorb oxygen in the lag phase, and short one could indicate a low oxygen wort.
I wouldn't consider these brews from last weekend low gravity:

Double Porter OG 1.086
IPA OG 1.072
NW Lager 1.068

I brew AG and always aerate my wort in the fermentor, using the classic shake it up method for 30 seconds...never had a problem before.

There's more than one way to skin a cat and there's more than one right way to skin a cat. I say experiment with the methods listed here, if one works for you use it!
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:40 AM   #53
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Personal choice is which strain to use, which beer to brew, buckets vs. carboys etc. It's a fact that rehydrating properly results in higher percentage of living yeast cells. It's also a fact that pitching it dry into wort results in about 50% death rate. A dehydrated cell that burst can not recover; it is dead. You can choose to kill 50% of your yeast, but you can't choose for that not to happen unless you rehydrate. It's about the easiest step of a brew day.
-Boil water
-let it cool to about 100 degrees
-sprinkle yeast on about a half cup of warm water
-wait 15 minutes
-stir and pitch
I'm really not sure why you wouldn't want to do this, but as you point out, it's your choice...
You have not read enough about it then. It is a personal choice. Grow up. Its a game of chance both ways... Except damaged cells in wort can recover. They can't in water at the wrong temp or if the water has toxins that can't be boiled out. How do you know what one worked better if they both fermented out just fine? You say 50% die in wort. Well toss in 2 if ya worried. How many die from improper re hydration? Bad water as yeast when first re hydrated cannot determine what is going through the cell walls and can become severly damaged and useless.
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:53 AM   #54
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You have not read enough about it then. It is a personal choice. Grow up.
It certainly is a personal choice, I agree. But the science says sprinkling on wort kills more cells than rehydration in water. What does growing up have to do with it? I wasn't being argumentative, just trying to steer a new brewer in the right direction. Apparently you are trying to do the opposite...
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:58 AM   #55
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Apparently not. Prove what I said was wrong about improper re hydration or bad water? Sprinkling in can kill more cells......But that is only if you re hydrated perfectly and nothing went wrong.... How do you know? You are the one stating its not a personal choice. You are the one that said it is a must do. That is where you are wrong. You cannot tell if there was toxins in the water or the temperature was off. You cannot guarantee all went perfect. Your logic is flawed. I never said sprinkling is perfect, but it is perfectly safe and reliable.

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Old 01-03-2013, 02:10 AM   #56
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Apparently not. Prove what I said was wrong about improper re hydration or bad water? Sprinkling in can kill more cells......But that is only if you re hydrated perfectly and nothing went wrong.... How do you know? You are the one stating its not a personal choice. You are the one that said it is a must do. That is where you are wrong. You cannot tell if there was toxins in the water or the temperature was off. You cannot guarantee all went perfect. Your logic is flawed. I never said sprinkling is perfect, but it is perfectly safe and reliable.
And I didn't say sprinkling dry yeast was wrong, just that it kills 50% of the yeast. If you figure that fact in to your pitch rate calculations and it works, there's certainly nothing wrong with it. If you are so concerned with toxins in your water, why are you brewing with it?
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:18 AM   #57
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And I didn't say sprinkling dry yeast was wrong, just that it kills 50% of the yeast. If you figure that fact in to your pitch rate calculations and it works, there's certainly nothing wrong with it. If you are so concerned with toxins in your water, why are you brewing with it?
Ok you did say that and you did say it was not a personal choice. Do I need to quote you? Your just be ridiculous now. Have a good night. I need not quote ya others can read.
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:21 AM   #58
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Apparently not. Prove what I said was wrong about improper re hydration or bad water? Sprinkling in can kill more cells......But that is only if you re hydrated perfectly and nothing went wrong.... How do you know? You are the one stating its not a personal choice. You are the one that said it is a must do. That is where you are wrong. You cannot tell if there was toxins in the water or the temperature was off. You cannot guarantee all went perfect. Your logic is flawed. I never said sprinkling is perfect, but it is perfectly safe and reliable.
If you rehydrate properly, you will have many more living, healthy yeast cells than if you sprinkle directly into wort.

Sure, if you rehydrate improperly, you can have problems. But rehydrating properly is not difficult.

There is zero advantage in reydrating in wort. This only makes the job harder. And, it probably damages the yeast, but I don't have hard evidence of that. Dr. Cone, below, recommends against it.

Don't bother oxygenating wort in which you've pitched dry (or rehydrated) yeast.

Dr. Clayton Cone is a renowned scientist at Lallemand. His word should be considered state of the art:

http://koehlerbeer.com/2008/06/07/rehydrating-dry-yeast-with-dr-clayton-cone/
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:25 AM   #59
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If you rehydrate properly, you will have many more living, healthy yeast cells than if you sprinkle directly into wort.

Sure, if you rehydrate improperly, you can have problems. But rehydrating properly is not difficult.

There is zero advantage in reydrating in wort. This only makes the job harder. And, it probably damages the yeast, but I don't have hard evidence of that. Dr. Cone, below, recommends against it.

Don't bother oxygenating wort in which you've pitched dry (or rehydrated) yeast.

Dr. Clayton Cone is a renowned scientist at Lallemand. His word should considered state of the art:

http://koehlerbeer.com/2008/06/07/rehydrating-dry-yeast-with-dr-clayton-cone/
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1046/j.1365-2672.1999.00638.x/asset/j.1365-2672.1999.00638.x.pdf;jsessionid=BFE7F71617217A7FE 43ED01667E0BD99.d04t03?v=1&t=ha2ode6g&f90ad15f



I agree with you. It is easy but not fool proof. Any toxins in the water or container can and will kill yeast. To what extent you will never know could be 20% or 50% or more. You never know whats in any water.

You have to remember this article which explains why re hydrating can be detrimental. Also it explains how even damaged cells can recover in rich wort. Also they talk of this 50% number always tossed around.

www.fermentis.com/shared/Doc_60698.pdf

May aswell toss this in there. To each there own. Brew and be happy. Also be informed of all the drawbacks of each and make your personal choice. Your the brewer not the people on the forums.
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:35 AM   #60
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There really is no reason to not rehydrate. I also use a little nutrient, like GoFerm when doing it. I have always rehydrated my wine yeast and although I primarily use liquid yeast, I have used dry on occasion and always rehydrate it. But then again, I would never use liquid without a starter either. Yeast is by far the most important ingredient in the beer, you might as well give it every advantage.

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