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Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Beginners Beer Brewing Forum > Re-hydrating yeast kills?
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Old 01-02-2013, 03:28 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by jonmohno View Post
It can. And depends what yeast if you want that or not. Its just something I learned and didnt know even with months of research before brewing,its just something that I didnt come across. Especially when directions say pitch below 80 deg. Yes,but generally that is still to high. JUst give your beer longer and it could still and may turn out very good right away, if its not give it more time and it may get better. There are alot of other things that can account for many different characters that may even be misleading at first when starting out. I was a little frustrated at first and just thought that homebrew may not be good or something.It was only a few things I happed to overlook which took experience and time to figure out.
Is your actuall beer 70 deg or your ambient temps 70? If you feel your fermenter and its pretty warm then you may have somewhat an estery beer.
The thermometer on my fermenting bucket normally stays between 68-71 degrees, so that would be the beer temp correct?
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Old 01-02-2013, 03:37 AM   #42
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You can kill cells by rehydrating wrong. It is to easy to forget how long or have a bad therometer. Water bad or contaminated. Alot to go wrong. Just as easy to sprinkle it in. A cell in rich wort even though damaged can quickly recover. A dead cell in rehydration does nothing. We can argue all day. In the end its personal choice. Dry yeast is cheap toss 2 packs in if worried.

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Old 01-02-2013, 03:59 AM   #43
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I've been using fermentis dry yeast for a while. Recently I noticed that they have the rehydration instructions on their new pdf and gave it a shot. I have to say it's given me good results.

My method is to reserve 1 liter of wort from my mash. While my boil is going on I sterilize the reserved liter of wort by boiling for 5 minutes in a small sauce pan. I then place the small sauce pan in a larger pot full of water and ice to chill to correct temp (80F for ale yeast, 73F for lager). I sprinkle the dry yeast on top of the chilled wort and let it rest like the instructions advise for 15-30 minutes.

The yeast will go through a series of steps right now. First it will just sit there dry for a few minutes and slowly rehydrate and drop into the wort. Then it will begin to 'proof' similar to the process of proofing if you've ever made bread at home, it will start to have little bubbles/foam rising up to the top across the surface. After 15-30 minutes I will give it a gentle stir and can feel that the yeast is thickening under the wort. Fermentis suggests stirring it gently for 30 minutes...I don't have a stir plate and am far too busy (lazy) during a brew day to do that. I stir it every 10-15 minutes until I'm ready to use it, in between stirs I put the lid for the small sauce pan (sanitized with starsan) over it to keep nasties from joining the party.

I have let it sit in the wort rehydrating for upwards of 2 hours. The other day I was making an IPA and it rehydrated during my 90 minute boil and my 30 minutes of cooling afterwards. By the time I was ready to pitch it was very thick and foamy and took off like a rocket.

The major benefit I've noticed to rehydration in wort is obvious...more yeast cells. I previously would typically use 2 packets of dry yeast for a lager, per the package directions. With rehydration taking place in wort you are basically kickstarting fermentation and therefore I've been able to only use 1 packet and have better results then I was having using 2. With the lager I brewed yesterday I rehydrated 1 packet of lager yeast over the course of 60-75 minutes and pitched at 55F. I saw signs of fermentation within 12 hours. The other benefit I've noticed is that fermentation starts sooner which has always been a downside of dry yeast vs. the ready to pitch liquid. And to top it off I've seen better attenuation on some of my regular brews that were done with dry yeast last time and rehydrated on the more recent batches.

All that said I'm a fan of the rehydration, it costs me little to no extra time and the payoff is totally worth it. Just make sure if you do it that you starsan anything that comes in contact with the wort/yeast/everything...like sanitize the spoon in between every 10 minute stir, if you set the lid for the pan on the counter sanitize it before it goes back on the pan, etc. I know it's beating a dead horse but I think the main reason that they previously recommended against rehydration is the risk for contamination can increase if you're not careful and of course novice brewers would assume it is the fault of Fermentis' product and not their own lax sanitization procedures.

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Old 01-02-2013, 04:08 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Hoppyending View Post
You can kill cells by rehydrating wrong. It is to easy to forget how long or have a bad therometer. Water bad or contaminated. Alot to go wrong. Just as easy to sprinkle it in. A cell in rich wort even though damaged can quickly recover. A dead cell in rehydration does nothing. We can argue all day. In the end its personal choice. Dry yeast is cheap toss 2 packs in if worried.
Personal choice is which strain to use, which beer to brew, buckets vs. carboys etc. It's a fact that rehydrating properly results in higher percentage of living yeast cells. It's also a fact that pitching it dry into wort results in about 50% death rate. A dehydrated cell that burst can not recover; it is dead. You can choose to kill 50% of your yeast, but you can't choose for that not to happen unless you rehydrate. It's about the easiest step of a brew day.
-Boil water
-let it cool to about 100 degrees
-sprinkle yeast on about a half cup of warm water
-wait 15 minutes
-stir and pitch
I'm really not sure why you wouldn't want to do this, but as you point out, it's your choice...
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Old 01-02-2013, 04:22 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by BansheeRider View Post
Why does the temperature have to be so high to hydrate the yeast? And what is the difference between rehydrating and making a starter with DME?
Rehydrating is warm water because the dried yeast will absorb it faster warm. I'm sure cool water would work but would simply take longer.

A starter is completely different though some posters on here are really confusing the two. With a starter you are culturing liquid yeast which needs no rehydration but is generally too few cells depending on gravity and volume of wort. For a starter you use a certain quantity of simple wort (not your beer recipe) to reach a certain cell count over a few days. You then pitch this increased amount of yeast on brew day.

Again:

Rehydrate = a 15 minute process to ensure you don't kill half your dry yeast packet by sprinkling directly to wort.

Starter = a process taking 1 or more days that increases the cell count of a liquid yeast culture to the optimum pitching rate.

Hope this helps...
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Old 01-02-2013, 04:26 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by mammothkraken View Post
My method is to reserve 1 liter of wort from my mash. [...] I sprinkle the dry yeast on top of the chilled wort and let it rest like the instructions advise for 15-30 minutes.

The yeast will go through a series of steps right now. First it will just sit there dry for a few minutes and slowly rehydrate and drop into the wort. Then it will begin to 'proof' similar to the process of proofing if you've ever made bread at home, it will start to have little bubbles/foam rising up to the top across the surface. [...]

I have let it sit in the wort rehydrating for upwards of 2 hours. The other day I was making an IPA and it rehydrated during my 90 minute boil and my 30 minutes of cooling afterwards. By the time I was ready to pitch it was very thick and foamy and took off like a rocket.
While I don't doubt that your method works, rehydration of modern dry yeasts is most effective in water, not wort. The reason I've seen cited, including earlier in this thread, is that during rehydration, the yeast cell membranes lack the selective permeability to keep toxic components of the wort out of the cell. These chemicals are not found in water, so it's not an issue. Furthermore, the packaged yeast powder contains enough nutrients that the yeast are happy for up to about 45 minutes without any additional nutrition.

The data sheets vary, and Fermentis says wort is ok, but the Danstar Nottingham ale yeast and Lalvin 71b-1122 wine yeast data sheets both specifically instruct not to use wort/must for rehydration.

Based on this, I think you'd have better results (in terms of yeast viability; it may or may not have any impact at all on your final product) if you rehydrated in sterile water instead of wort. Now, if you're going to be waiting a couple hours before pitching, transfering your slurry into a small quantity of wort is a good idea simply because the yeast will use up their initial carbohydrate/fatty acid reserves and start dying if you don't feed them something.

You also mentioned the various phases that your rehydrating yeast go through. I just want to point out that I see essentially all that activity in most of my rehydrations, using nothing but water. I sprinkle the yeast on top and after a short time, the yeast clumps and sinks, and ends up with a thick creamy foam. Unless you need to sustain the yeast for an extended period before pitching, wort isn't necessary to get yeast to "proof" with modern dried brewer's yeasts.
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Old 01-02-2013, 04:28 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mammothkraken View Post
I've been using fermentis dry yeast for a while. Recently I noticed that they have the rehydration instructions on their new pdf and gave it a shot. I have to say it's given me good results.

My method is to reserve 1 liter of wort from my mash. While my boil is going on I sterilize the reserved liter of wort by boiling for 5 minutes in a small sauce pan. I then place the small sauce pan in a larger pot full of water and ice to chill to correct temp (80F for ale yeast, 73F for lager). I sprinkle the dry yeast on top of the chilled wort and let it rest like the instructions advise for 15-30 minutes.

The yeast will go through a series of steps right now. First it will just sit there dry for a few minutes and slowly rehydrate and drop into the wort. Then it will begin to 'proof' similar to the process of proofing if you've ever made bread at home, it will start to have little bubbles/foam rising up to the top across the surface. After 15-30 minutes I will give it a gentle stir and can feel that the yeast is thickening under the wort. Fermentis suggests stirring it gently for 30 minutes...I don't have a stir plate and am far too busy (lazy) during a brew day to do that. I stir it every 10-15 minutes until I'm ready to use it, in between stirs I put the lid for the small sauce pan (sanitized with starsan) over it to keep nasties from joining the party.

I have let it sit in the wort rehydrating for upwards of 2 hours. The other day I was making an IPA and it rehydrated during my 90 minute boil and my 30 minutes of cooling afterwards. By the time I was ready to pitch it was very thick and foamy and took off like a rocket.

The major benefit I've noticed to rehydration in wort is obvious...more yeast cells. I previously would typically use 2 packets of dry yeast for a lager, per the package directions. With rehydration taking place in wort you are basically kickstarting fermentation and therefore I've been able to only use 1 packet and have better results then I was having using 2. With the lager I brewed yesterday I rehydrated 1 packet of lager yeast over the course of 60-75 minutes and pitched at 55F. I saw signs of fermentation within 12 hours. The other benefit I've noticed is that fermentation starts sooner which has always been a downside of dry yeast vs. the ready to pitch liquid. And to top it off I've seen better attenuation on some of my regular brews that were done with dry yeast last time and rehydrated on the more recent batches.

All that said I'm a fan of the rehydration, it costs me little to no extra time and the payoff is totally worth it. Just make sure if you do it that you starsan anything that comes in contact with the wort/yeast/everything...like sanitize the spoon in between every 10 minute stir, if you set the lid for the pan on the counter sanitize it before it goes back on the pan, etc. I know it's beating a dead horse but I think the main reason that they previously recommended against rehydration is the risk for contamination can increase if you're not careful and of course novice brewers would assume it is the fault of Fermentis' product and not their own lax sanitization procedures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demus View Post
Personal choice is which strain to use, which beer to brew, buckets vs. carboys etc. It's a fact that rehydrating properly results in higher percentage of living yeast cells. It's also a fact that pitching it dry into wort results in about 50% death rate. A dehydrated cell that burst can not recover; it is dead. You can choose to kill 50% of your yeast, but you can't choose for that not to happen unless you rehydrate. It's about the easiest step of a brew day.
-Boil water
-let it cool to about 100 degrees
-sprinkle yeast on about a half cup of warm water
-wait 15 minutes
-stir and pitch
I'm really not sure why you wouldn't want to do this, but as you point out, it's your choice...
Your method sounds so easy and I too don't know why one wouldn't want to do this. The poster above you has a good method as well. Hmmm decisions decisions.
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Old 01-02-2013, 04:31 AM   #48
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Your method sounds so easy and I too don't know why one wouldn't want to do this. The poster above you has a good method as well. Hmmm decisions decisions.
He's still rehydrating with wort though. This makes no sense because it's really the same as just sprinkling it into your main wort when you think about it....
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Old 01-02-2013, 04:42 AM   #49
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He's still rehydrating with wort though. This makes no sense because it's really the same as just sprinkling it into your main wort when you think about it....
I think he's trying to avoid shocking the yeast, as discussed earlier in this thread. Hydrating the yeast in 90 degree water and then pitching in 70 degree wort may not work as well.
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Old 01-02-2013, 04:50 AM   #50
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My method has produced better results for me than just sprinkling into the wort. Also I've tried the water rehydration and based on a few trials of each method the wort rehydration takes off faster and has better attenuation but I'm not testing this in a lab...and the end result is the same...beer.
This works good for me but like many things in brewing to each their own.

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