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**kontreren** · 10-29-2008, 12:06 PM

KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid; I plan a fermentable grain/malt extract combo brew for the weekend and need advice. The main question is do I need two different brew pots? Palmer says about grains "The mash should be held at the saccharification temperature for about an hour". But I understand brewing to include a real rolling boil and a "hot break" when the hops are added. So can I mash the flaked rice & corn for 1 hour at 140F-150F then remove the actual grains, add the malt extract and reach a real boil? Or do I keep them separate until sparge time? {All assistance appreciated, thankx in advance!}

DaleJ · 10-29-2008, 12:12 PM

You're describing a partial mash.

Here's the link to Palmer's instructions on how to do a PM.

If you're an extract brewer and want to add adjuncts, you may want to consider using corn syrup (ie. Karo) instead of "mashing".

Also, I'd add some crystal and base grains to your PM.
Since you're going to the trouble, you might was well get the most from it.

***Yooper*** · 10-29-2008, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kontreren

KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid; I plan a fermentable grain/malt extract combo brew for the weekend and need advice. The main question is do I need two different brew pots? Palmer says about grains "The mash should be held at the saccharification temperature for about an hour". But I understand brewing to include a real rolling boil and a "hot break" when the hops are added. So can I mash the flaked rice & corn for 1 hour at 140F-150F then remove the actual grains, add the malt extract and reach a real boil? Or do I keep them separate until sparge time? {All assistance appreciated, thankx in advance!}

You can easily do this in one pot (but you need another pot to heat up water for the sparge- the rinsing of the grain). You mash the rice and corn (and you need some base malt along with it, like 2-row) for one hour for a nice steady temperature- try to get it at 150, or even a bit higher, rather than lower. So, keep it steady at 150-153. I would just turn off the heat, and put a lid on the pot. You can occasionally go lift and dunk and stir the grains up. You want to make sure all of the grains are wetted thoroughly and you can check the temperature at that time. If it gets lower than 150, turn the heat on again gently.

You should do this mash at the rate of about 1.25-1.5 quarts per pound of grain. And the base grain (two row) should equal the rice and corn. What I mean is- say you have a pound of rice and a pound of corn. You'd also want 2 pounds of 2-row, so they'd equal out. So, 4 pounds of grain total. The amount of water you'd use would be 1.5 quarts per pound- times 4- so you'd mash in 6 quarts of water.

After the mash, you would remove the grains. I like to use a grain bag, and lift them up and put them in a spaghetti strainer over the brewpot, so that it drips back into the brewpot. Then, you gently pour 170 degree water (that was heating in a different pot) over the grains in the strainer, so that it rinses the sugars out of the grain. You can do this with up to .5 gallons of water per pound of grain, so in this case, you'd use 2 gallons of water. That should bring you up to your boil volume, if you're boiling 2.5 gallons of wort. Then, you'd bring that to a boil, remove from heat, add your extract and bring back to a boil and start your hops additions.

Deathbrewer has an awesome thread on this process- with pictures. It sounds like many steps, but it really isn't!

Edit- I remembered that you are not using barley so my adding 2-row is no help to you. I know that corn and rice will NOT convert themselves, so you need something in there to help them convert. What are you using that has the diastatic power to convert? Or is this not a gluten free brew, and you're able to use barley?

**kontreren** · 10-29-2008, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YooperBrew

I know that corn and rice will NOT convert themselves, so you need something in there to help them convert. What are you using that has the diastatic power to convert? Or is this not a gluten free brew, and you're able to use barley?

That is where the extract comes in. It is a Sorghum Malt Extract, not an actual sorghum grain. Because I did want this one to be gluten free. So would it be advisable to mix in 3 lbs. sorghum malt extract w/ the grains or some other method to convert to sugars? I have some recipes from the Gluten Free group here that include the flaked corn, sorghum extract, et. al., but no details on how the brewing took place (aka, 150F or a boil w/ hot break, etc).

**kontreren** · 10-29-2008, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YooperBrew

...Deathbrewer has an awesome thread on this process- with pictures. It sounds like many steps, but it really isn't!...

Anyone know where that thread is?

***Yooper*** · 10-29-2008, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kontreren

Anyone know where that thread is?

Sure! http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-partial-mash-brewing-pics-75231/

I don't have an answer on the sorghum question- but I have two contrasting thoughts. First, it's already converted, so I'm not sure how it would help convert the corn/rice. Secondly, maybe it's better than NOT using it. See, told you they were opposite thoughts.

I think that you may be better off with corn sugar and rice syrup for your fermentables than trying to mash them without base grains. Then you don't have to worry about converstion.

**kontreren** · 10-29-2008, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaleJ

You're describing a partial mash.

Here's the link to Palmer's instructions on how to do a PM.

If you're an extract brewer and want to add adjuncts, you may want to consider using corn syrup (ie. Karo) instead of "mashing".

Also, I'd add some crystal and base grains to your PM.
Since you're going to the trouble, you might was well get the most from it.

I want to do a partial grain mash but I think the problem arises from not being able to use barley malt in the grain because of the gluten. So I'm stuck with flaked rice & corn & sorghum extract as fermentables (I also have corn syrup, honey, belgium candi, and palm sugar). Technically I have some 6 row barley malt, oats, and chocolate malt too but they all contain gluten. I'm experimenting w/ gluten free brewing and flying by the seat of my pants. I suppose I can use the grains in a batch of regular beer and just use extracts and syrups in the gluten free beer if I must.

**Saccharomyces** · 10-29-2008, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kontreren

That is where the extract comes in. It is a Sorghum Malt Extract, not an actual sorghum grain. Because I did want this one to be gluten free. So would it be advisable to mix in 3 lbs. sorghum malt extract w/ the grains or some other method to convert to sugars? I have some recipes from the Gluten Free group here that include the flaked corn, sorghum extract, et. al., but no details on how the brewing took place (aka, 150F or a boil w/ hot break, etc).

That won't work. Extract doesn't have enzymes to convert the corn. You would have to mash with sorghum grain. If you only have extract you could use corn sugar/Karo/etc. and rice extract.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-partial-mash-brewing-pics-75231/

**kontreren** · 10-29-2008, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YooperBrew

...I think that you may be better off with corn sugar and rice syrup for your fermentables than trying to mash them without base grains. Then you don't have to worry about converstion.

Another poster just offered the same advice. So I could use all extract/syrup brewing for the GF, and put my 6 row barley malt in with the corn & rice. But now my question is how did those who used flaked corn in their GF recipies use the grains w/o the barley malt grains? Perhaps it was as you suggested and the flaked corn didn't convert?

**kontreren** · 10-29-2008, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saccharomyces

That won't work. Extract doesn't have enzymes to convert the corn. You would have to mash with sorghum grain. ....

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-partial-mash-brewing-pics-75231/

So are there enzymes I can buy to add in? We can buy all sorts of amino acids, probiotic bacteria, vitamins, & minerals. Are there enzymes on the shelf at GNC or some place I could toss in w/ the flaked corn & rice?