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Old 02-16-2010, 06:52 PM   #11
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One school of thought, I have read, is that if you dump the hops into the primary, you will get more hop utilization. I will see as I dumped everything from my Pale Ale boil into the primary. I will be kegging it later today if time allows.

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Old 02-16-2010, 08:12 PM   #12
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I'm only one brew in. However, I inadvertently poured about 1/2 my gunk in my primary when I was filling it (wasn't expecting there to be so much, so it snuck up on me). Yet, I can honestly say I've thoroughly enjoyed the taste of each sample I've taken.

The wife say's it's bitter as hell, but she hates beer anyhow...to me the batch is magically delicious.

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Old 02-16-2010, 08:18 PM   #13
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One school of thought, I have read, is that if you dump the hops into the primary, you will get more hop utilization. I will see as I dumped everything from my Pale Ale boil into the primary. I will be kegging it later today if time allows.
The problem with that train of thought is that you have to boil hops to extract the bittering acids, and after I think it's 30 minutes you destroy most of the flavor of the hops too.

My money is on no real change.
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Old 02-16-2010, 08:20 PM   #14
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The problem with that train of thought is that you have to boil hops to extract the bittering acids, and after I think it's 30 minutes you destroy most of the flavor of the hops too.

My money is on no real change.
Yeah, once the AAs are isomerized in the boil, there's nothing left to them, THOSE have done their job, they are spent.
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:08 PM   #15
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The problem with that train of thought is that you have to boil hops to extract the bittering acids, and after I think it's 30 minutes you destroy most of the flavor of the hops too.

My money is on no real change.
What about the affect on late edition hops for flavor? Many styles call for hop additions with 10 min or 5 min left on the boil time, even at flame out.
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:14 PM   #16
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What about the affect on late edition hops for flavor? Many styles call for hop additions with 10 min or 5 min left on the boil time, even at flame out.
that's for aroma and flavor NOT for bitterness. Not much AAUs are isomerized in that time. Those are added, as our many spices so late so their volitile oils that impart flavor and aroma are not boiled off.
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:22 PM   #17
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that's for aroma and flavor NOT for bitterness. Not much AAUs are isomerized in that time. Those are added, as our many spices so late so their volitile oils that impart flavor and aroma are not boiled off.
Yes, I had that thought about the time that hit the Submit Reply button. So I guess my real question is, Is there a benefit to the aroma to leave the hops in as you transfer to the primary?
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:48 PM   #18
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The problem with that train of thought is that you have to boil hops to extract the bittering acids, and after I think it's 30 minutes you destroy most of the flavor of the hops too.
.
If that is true, then why do late addition hops provide IBUs? Why do recipes call for different hops at 60minutes? If the flavor is gone, why not always use the same bittering hop, or whatever is cheapest? How can a beer be made with only late addition hops if they provide no bitterness?

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Old 02-17-2010, 12:18 AM   #19
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If that is true, then why do late addition hops provide IBUs?
Really late addition hops don't add any IBU, and by "really late" I mean 0min and dry hopping. Of course one would argue that a 0min hop addition will add a tiny bit of bittering because the wort is not cooled below the point where the AA can be isomerized fast enough to prevent it. It's so minuscule that it's not worth calculating toward bittering unless of course it takes you a while to chill your wort. That's why no-chill brewing uses less hops, you get more bittering out of late addition hops because your wort stays hotter for longer, hence more isomerization and more bitterness.

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Why do recipes call for different hops at 60minutes?
Most recipes call for different hops because they use a higher AA hop for bittering because it's cheaper to bitter with 1oz 10%AA hop than 2oz 5%AA hops. Most will use "compatibly flavored" hops for bittering because why muddy the waters if you don't have to. If all you had on hand was a contrasting hop for bittering, I'd use it, but I haven't had the need. Maybe someday I'll brew 2 identical beers accept for the bittering hop and see what, if any, difference there is.

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How can a beer be made with only late addition hops if they provide no bitterness?
It's not that they don't provide any bitterness at all, they just provide less. If you only late addition hop, say 20min-0min every 5, you will use twice or more the hops to achieve the same bitterness.

I'd recommend BeerSmith or similar and really start playing around with some recipes from the board and see how each hop addition changes the IBU

Here's a copy of hop additions in BeerSmith for comparison on time and bitterness each is contributing:

1.00 oz Cascade [5.40 %] (60 min) Hops 12.7 IBU
1.00 oz Cascade [5.40 %] (20 min) Hops 7.7 IBU
1.00 oz Cascade [5.40 %] (15 min) Hops 6.3 IBU
1.00 oz Cascade [5.40 %] (5 min) Hops 2.5 IBU
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (0 min) Hops -
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops -
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Old 02-17-2010, 12:54 AM   #20
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Really late addition hops don't add any IBU, and by "really late" I mean 0min and dry hopping. Of course one would argue that a 0min hop addition will add a tiny bit of bittering because the wort is not cooled below the point where the AA can be isomerized fast enough to prevent it. It's so minuscule that it's not worth calculating toward bittering unless of course it takes you a while to chill your wort. That's why no-chill brewing uses less hops, you get more bittering out of late addition hops because your wort stays hotter for longer, hence more isomerization and more bitterness.
I was referring mostly to additions later than 20 minutes. You are correct, none of the equations will produce a bittering effect from flameout or dry hopping.

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Most recipes call for different hops because they use a higher AA hop for bittering because it's cheaper to bitter with 1oz 10%AA hop than 2oz 5%AA hops. Most will use "compatibly flavored" hops for bittering because why muddy the waters if you don't have to. If all you had on hand was a contrasting hop for bittering, I'd use it, but I haven't had the need. Maybe someday I'll brew 2 identical beers accept for the bittering hop and see what, if any, difference there is.
Using compatible hops to change the hop bill in a recipe is exactly why I brought that up. If all hops at 60min provided no flavor at all, then any hop variety would do, right?

I agree that using a contrasting hop would be interesting. I think this is part of the draw to experiment with hoppy belgian-style beers.

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It's not that they don't provide any bitterness at all, they just provide less. If you only late addition hop, say 20min-0min every 5, you will use twice or more the hops to achieve the same bitterness.
Someone had said that hops need to be boiled for 30 minutes to provide any bitterness and at those hops provided no flavor. I just wanted to start a discussion about it to see that person's viewpoint, because I have heard and read conflicting information.

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I'd recommend BeerSmith or similar and really start playing around with some recipes from the board and see how each hop addition changes the IBU
I play around with that a lot. The last beer I made was about 50/50 from 60 minute IBUs and 15/10/5/1 IBUs to play with the concept. I like how it turned out, but that is merely my biased opinion.

Eric
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