Is no rolling boil bad?
- Thread starter Maegnar
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Good to know that cooking with aluminum is bad for you. I'll stop, you know, eating anything, anywhere, from any restaurant. Ever. Then when I don't get Alzheimer's, I'll be sure I made the right choice.
http://www.alz.org/alzheimers_disease_myths_about_alzheimers.asp
Or not. Man, Googling **** is hard.
http://www.alz.org/alzheimers_disease_myths_about_alzheimers.asp
Or not. Man, Googling **** is hard.
Denny's Evil Concoctions said:What fancy machine? You're saying they don't boil at all? So either they use pasteurized extract and hop oils or they make wild yeast fermented malt liquor.OP. If you lived in the mountains your boiling temp would be about 95c and though it would have a rolling boil. Figure out your hourly boil off and adjust ypur boil time. If you use beersmith this can be done quite easily.
Pasteurization occurs at 160F, that's the temp food producers use and the recommended temp within the food industry. You only need a few minutes above 160 to sanitize wort and everything in it. I've been making yeast starters this way for a long time. To check your wort sanitation, just put it in a loosely covered container and watch it for contamination. You should not see anything before about 5 days. If things start growing in your wort prior to that, you have sanitation issues.
MarcusKillion
Well-Known Member
What fancy machine? You're saying they don't boil at all? So either they use pasteurized extract and hop oils or they make wild yeast fermented malt liquor.
OP. If you lived in the mountains your boiling temp would be about 95c and though it would have a rolling boil.
Figure out your hourly boil off and adjust ypur boil time. If you use beersmith this can be done quite easily.
this machine has been used by breweries and the beer taste tested by the experts and they say it is great and it does not boil . Watch their video and read their faq for the information on why it is not done . rather interesting . slick machine and expensive .
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1708005089/picobrew-zymatic-the-automatic-beer-brewing-applia
I used to just bring my wort to a gentle boil and it worked out just fine . That is all my stove and my first propane burner would do . Then I saw a video with the full boil and all the reasons why and started doing it that way . the only difference I have ever noticed is that i can boil off more water quicker . No difference in taste at all.
MarcusKillion
Well-Known Member
Aluminum is very bad for you and since the great move to everything made from it Alzheimer's has become far more prevalent and is directly related to Aluminum in the brain . This has been known for many decades . i was told in about 1970 by my dad not to breath in the dust or fumes from sanding or melting it . I would think cooking in it would impart some in your food . Besides aluminum turkey fryer pots are rough and leave plenty of places for nasties to hide .
but I used to use one . then I got Alzheimer's and forgot where I put it and had to buy stainless
BURNING aluminum is very bad for you. Do not breathe burning aluminum, or burning anything. There is no known connection between aluminum and Alzheimer's, and it's pretty obvious that the increased prevalence of the disease since aluminum came into use (what, the 1920s?!) has SOMETHING to do with the fact that doctors know what it is now and correctly diagnose it. Y'think?
On the other hand, if you are going to spout pseudoscience, better this than antivax or something. At least with this, all you do is convince brewers to waste money on stainless when aluminum is cheap and ideal for boiling liquids.
Edit: BTW, aluminum actually burns at like 7000F, so unless you have a really kickin' burner, you're OK in that department. It melts around 1200F. What you're getting when you weld with it is the production of poisonous oxides from the welding process, the same as you get when you solder or weld with anything.
On the other hand, if you are going to spout pseudoscience, better this than antivax or something. At least with this, all you do is convince brewers to waste money on stainless when aluminum is cheap and ideal for boiling liquids.
Edit: BTW, aluminum actually burns at like 7000F, so unless you have a really kickin' burner, you're OK in that department. It melts around 1200F. What you're getting when you weld with it is the production of poisonous oxides from the welding process, the same as you get when you solder or weld with anything.
FATC1TY
Well-Known Member
There's so much stupid and mis information in this thread it makes my head hurt...
I hope this thread dies off so some newbies to brewing don't think their aluminum pot will kill them and quit brewing because of not being able to get a SS pot.
I hope this thread dies off so some newbies to brewing don't think their aluminum pot will kill them and quit brewing because of not being able to get a SS pot.
FATC1TY
Well-Known Member
Aluminum is rough, and can harbor nasties?
It's your boil pot.... think about what you just said. Doesn't matter.. it's all brought to a long boil even IF that statement was true.
Yeah, I wasn't even gonna start on that. Maybe he has problems with those exotic bacteria that live in deep sea volcanic trenches. Not much else will survive multiple hour-long boils.
MarcusKillion
Well-Known Member
seems to be a lot of info in both directions but the aluminum is there any way and I am sure it is not good to have a brain full of it .
Since pots and pans started to be made of aluminum lots of things have gotten worse it seems . how ever given the larger populations more would be expected along with better diagnoses . But I still think the stuff is not good for you to cook in without teflon coating to stop it from getting in your food . No telling how much gets in when the pot is on a very hot burner . Then add in the corrosive effects of brewing Acid / base .
Better safe than sorry I would say .
MarcusKillion
Well-Known Member
I am just saying stainless is better suited . I used aluminum for quite a while .
The nasties thing I stated is just a fact . Feel the inside of your cheap turkey fryer pot . It is rough . I am just saying that they require a bit more attention to detail when cleaning .
I know nothing is going to live through the boil . At least nothing I want to know about before I drink a beer.
That has bee proven false years ago. Aluminum is just fine after it's conditioned.
Let me guess....you don't believe in vaccinations either b/c "they cause Autism"....just like "aluminum causes alzheimers".... I LOVE my 10 gallon aluminum pot!! It cost about 50 bucks and is Sooo easy to clean with mild soap and a dish towel. Guess what my next pot will be?!?!? ALUMINUM! But probably 15 or 20 gallons so I can start with 10 gallon batches.
FATC1TY
Well-Known Member
MarcusKillion said:
Just so you know. That Teflon coating is far, far worse for you to ingest than aluminum. Just sayin. If you are gonna go by no known facts then atleast follow a fact that Teflon is disgusting for you.
FATC1TY
Well-Known Member
And to anyone that had a pot. Don't scrub it like Marcus states. You want the passive layer to stay. Rinse. Soap it. Wipe it. That's all you need to do. Don't scrub it to death unless you have too.
MarcusKillion
Well-Known Member
I do not actually SCRUB the pots with something abrasive . I use a wash cloth and Ivory soap .
On to Teflon . Only bad if you over heat the pan . Then yes . This is why you are not supposed to use high heat on pots and pans .
Aluminum turkey fryer pots , well I just can not see them being all that healthy with a huge propane burner on them and caustic or acidic liquid being boiled . I could be wrong as it is just a theory .
I thought I was wrong one time but I was mistaken .
But like I said , I used them also . Up until I wanted to go bigger .
Sure them nasties will die in the boil so no point in washing too thoroughly , right ? Well then no reason to wash them dishes before you eat off of them again . your sink is the nastier than your toilet so I would not suggest it but if you simply boiled the dishes for a few minutes then you could use them . No need to wash them as them germs probably died in that boil .
Well I would say that I would rather wash them germs off instead of having them dead germs in my food . So goes with the beer .
I am not a germophobe personally so I think a little soap and a scrubbing with a cloth is usually all that is needed .
On to Teflon . Only bad if you over heat the pan . Then yes . This is why you are not supposed to use high heat on pots and pans .
Aluminum turkey fryer pots , well I just can not see them being all that healthy with a huge propane burner on them and caustic or acidic liquid being boiled . I could be wrong as it is just a theory .
I thought I was wrong one time but I was mistaken .
But like I said , I used them also . Up until I wanted to go bigger .
Sure them nasties will die in the boil so no point in washing too thoroughly , right ? Well then no reason to wash them dishes before you eat off of them again . your sink is the nastier than your toilet so I would not suggest it but if you simply boiled the dishes for a few minutes then you could use them . No need to wash them as them germs probably died in that boil .
Well I would say that I would rather wash them germs off instead of having them dead germs in my food . So goes with the beer .
I am not a germophobe personally so I think a little soap and a scrubbing with a cloth is usually all that is needed .
MarcusKillion
Well-Known Member
What conditioning ? Like a cast iron pan ?
I think you may be referring to anodizing it . Anodized aluminum pots are the safest choice . Nice hard surface that is sealed away from the aluminum .
cheap pots like turkey fryers have not been anodized. the aluminum can get in your food and it is not good for you. Probably will not get alzheimer's but ... Alzheimer's people do have a lot in them . to be fair so do elderly people . Who knows why .
captainkirk83
Well-Known Member
We could just as easily blame radio or tv waves for causing Alzheimer's as the disease didn't exist until they were sent through the air.
Correlation does not equal causation.
Wow this thread got off on a tangent.
Correlation does not equal causation.
Wow this thread got off on a tangent.
MarcusKillion
Well-Known Member
So then back to the point of all of this ... No rolling boil is just fine as far as I can tell . How ever I do think it is preferable to me since it means less time boiling off that excess water ... Oh yeah that excess water would not need to be in there if I used a gentle boil .... A conundrum indeed .
I think this was asked long ago - " to boil or not to boil . that is the question ."
Maybe this goes into play - hard boil would boil away more of them tasty smelly oils from the hops ?
Maybe the gentle boil would leave more aroma/flavor ? Leading in to - what temp is best for extracting them oils ?
Just for the facts i use a 90 minute full boil with hops of course starting in at 60 minutes or FWA
I think this was asked long ago - " to boil or not to boil . that is the question ."
Maybe this goes into play - hard boil would boil away more of them tasty smelly oils from the hops ?
Maybe the gentle boil would leave more aroma/flavor ? Leading in to - what temp is best for extracting them oils ?
Just for the facts i use a 90 minute full boil with hops of course starting in at 60 minutes or FWA
Johnny... Check out this article. That urban legend about cooking in aluminum has been pretty thoroughly debunked.
FATC1TY
Well-Known Member
Your analogy doesn't work.. Washing dishes and your pot don't go together.
Aluminum might be "rough" but it's not full of holes to harbor bacteria, so you can drop that theory. It's wrong. It's your boil pot, and it's purpose is to boil the liquid. You should clean your dishes because there is dried on food on them, same as you would clean your pot from hop debris before you use it again.
Also, Teflon can scrape off your pots quicker than you just over heating them. Point is, you can use high heat on pots, because who the hell would buy pots that you could only simmer in? It gets scraped up worse. High heat causes it to break down, but at that point, you'll likely be at the point of flashing any oils, or burning the hell out of your food.
You really should stop pushing out these "theories" you have, because some people here, new brewers, might take it as gospel.
Regardless, aluminum pots are fine for boiling. Boil a new pot, or a cleaned pot with a little water and get a gray passive layer on it, and you are perfectly fine. I use SS because of the ease of use in cleaning it, and because it's a bigger kettle I needed. Aluminum would work just fine.
FATC1TY
Well-Known Member
Over 100-110 degrees will boil off the compounds for aroma. So you'd still need to boil, because you need to isomerize your alpha's to get your IBU's.
No way around it.
(deleted because I didn't see the last two pages, and my sarcastic comments about aluminum and teflon are probably unnecessary)
The main reason you don't scrub aluminum and let it "condition" (with boil protein gunk really, not with polymerized oil like cast iron) is to ward off corrosion, though, just so it's said.
The main reason you don't scrub aluminum and let it "condition" (with boil protein gunk really, not with polymerized oil like cast iron) is to ward off corrosion, though, just so it's said.
I use a 6 gallon stainless pot on a kitchen range top. It takes a while for it to get to the boil point, and I'm always standing guard with a spray bottle of sanitized water. I often do not have much room for the hot break to rise much. So I beat it down with the spray bottle. It eventually calms down and I can leave it without worries of boil over. I off-set my kettle from the burner so that the burner is on one side. This helps the boil to develop that circulating motion. In fact, you can see it circulating before it even actually starts boiling.
Wow, so many answers
I should have mentioned earlier that I do AG brews, not extracts.
To answer some of the questions, I was covering the lid and will know better not to. I do like my beers and some of them have even won a couple of medals in the local HB competitions
I am considering to buy a flat bottom stainless steel pot, but they cost a small fortune and I can't let myself currently buy one. I will research on the turkey friers, as I have an option of shipping from UK, if the price is right.
I will probably lower the volumes to 15 l for now, to get a better boil, while I search for new cooking pot.
If you like your beers and you are winning medals in competition with them why change?
If it ain't broke don't fix it!
Epimetheus
Well-Known Member
Why does copper help? How much surface area per volume of wort or gravity? Is this similar to using copper mesh in the condenser of a distilling unit?
I insert a large copper immersion cooler only in the last 10 minutes. Would copper reduce DMS noticeably in either of these cases?
1. have some copper in the boil kettle from the start of the boil
2. have some copper in the wort throughout fermentation.
Not to nitpick, but just for informational purposes for everyone, you don't need to sanitize or sterilize anything that is only going near boiling or preboil wort. I mean it should be clean, no straining it through dirty socks, but you don't have to do the "boiled water" thing with your foam fighting spray bottle. (I usually skim and, if there's enough, filter all that hot break foam anyway, but I'm a weirdo.)
I can't find anything on this but it's interesting. I mean, this has to be some kind of catalytic action, if true? I have never had a DMS problem (none that I know of anyway, maybe I don't know what I'm tasting but I figure it's sulfuric/rotten eggy).
I see some stuff like this on post-ferm wine additives but I don't know how it relates. http://morebeer.com/public/wine/Product Directions/CuSO4.pdf
I see where you are coming from. My idea of sanitized water in my spray bottle is rinsing the bottle out pretty good and adding distilled water.
I don't get too carried away with cleaning things that will only be boiled later. My cleanliness does go out of control when dealing with the beer at all points after the wort is cooling/cooled.
mikebenntt
Member
Responding to Maegnar's first post. I just did my first batch 2 days ago also on an induction cook top. I did get to the hot break with a very vigorous rolling boil. I had to knock it down until the break finally came through. After that, I never did get it back to a rolling boil (at least what I consider a rolling boil). I could see that the hops and all in the pot were moving around very nicely and I did take a temperature reading and it came out at 219F. So I think my boil came out well. The batch has been in the fermenter for two days and it's bubbling like crazy. BTW, my first batch is 2.5 gallons and I'm hoping for the best.
Tim_Kreitz
Well-Known Member
I didn't read through every single post, but in skimming this thread, I didn't see anyone ask whether or not these are extract brews you're boiling on your stovetop. Long, rolling boils are not as necessary for extract, because it has already been boiled for you once. James Spencer at Basic Brewing did a whole series of videos on 20-minute extract beers that used extra hops to compensate for the reduced boil times. I brewed a couple of them back when I was keeping enough DME around, and they were surprisingly good. Just some food for thought. What matters is, do you like your beer? If you do, steady on.
NivekD
Well-Known Member
Thats all I need to know...
You are absolutely right that long boils are more important for all grain brewing. Even with all grain, however, it isn't necessary to have a violent boil. For most styles that don't depend on a lot of Maillard reactions in the kettle, as long as there is some disturbance on the surface, you should be fine.
MarcusKillion
Well-Known Member
Your beer is obviously going to be horrible because of this action . Unless of course it tastes good .
I have my $$ on good .
I have my $$ on good .
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