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Old 09-05-2008, 08:05 PM   #41
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Thanks for the info Revvy. I've got a batch of a Kwak-inspired beer - a recipe that I received from Charlie Papazian himself via TechTalk - that really tastes sour now. I haven't dumped it, but it did have film-funk of what I can only equate to what looked and smelled like bread-yeast on the top (I'll provide a pic when I get home). I've got it in a keg now and won't even think about tapping it until 2009 or so - it was a big beer anyway. Hell, it's Belgian, right??


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Old 09-05-2008, 08:36 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Ed Gruberman, you must learn patience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Gruberman
Yeah yeah, patience, how long will that take?!
Case in point?
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Old 09-05-2008, 09:16 PM   #43
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I've been saying "don't dump" for years.

I have 2 kegs of Oktoberfests lagering since March. They tasted a bit nasty (something off, maybe) a couple months ago, but I let them continue to age. Just last week I pulled a sample and they are tasting great.

Good write-up Revvy.
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Old 09-06-2008, 12:21 AM   #44
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Thanks HB 99, the rest of you!

We just gotta convince the noobs not to panic dump. That they should just walk away from the batch and forget about it for a couple months, then re-visit it...If it's still bad, then dump away...but usually the beer ends up being drinkable, if not great.

I think this happens less with experience, and with a pipeline, we obsess over each individual batch less...if a batch isn't up to snuff right away, we have more in the pipeline behind it that will be ready.
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Old 09-06-2008, 03:17 AM   #45
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I would NEVER dump a batch of beer unless it was just totally contaminated in some way. I've always said that spilt or wasted beer is a one way ticket to hell. Seriously though, I brewed a Shiner Bock clone and I knew I had added just a little too much water into the primary, and I was right. It's been bottled fo rabout 3.5 weeks now and I've drunk a few spaced days apart since week 2 just to see how the it was tasting as it aged. When I bottled, I tasted it and the uncarbed brew tasted dead on like Shiner, but the hyrometer readings weren't settled yet so I let it sit for 3 more days and then bottled once it was where it needed to be. Now, it tastes NOTHING like Shiner. It has a bit of a watered doen tasted to it, but is a little maltier and less hoppy than Shiner. Not sure if it just sat in primary for a bit too long or what but it now tastes like Pete's Wicked Ale. I'm not complaining, just stating to other Noobs lke meself, that it may not taste like what you wanted it too or it was supposed to, but there are sooo many variations on beer that its almost impossible to go wrong. I'm very satisfied with my finished product and I will hide a sixer in the back of my closet to see how it tastes in 6 months.

I'm looking for a good simple Root Beer recepie for a 5 gal batch if anyone has one. Also. One of my most favorite beers is Double Diamond Ale from England. Anyone have a or know of a good clone brew for it??
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Old 09-06-2008, 03:53 AM   #46
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Sure, ageing your bad beer for 6 or 12 months will probably improve it but if I brew an English or American Ale then I expect to be drinking it and enjoying it after 3 weeks, from grain to glass. I only brew ales at the moment, and lagers and some ales often require longer ageing.

I try to do primary for one week, seconday for one week, then bottle. I expect it to taste good after 3 weeks and great after 4 weeks. I notice the flavour and aroma changes a lot between 3-4 weeks, but as time goes on the changes in the beer each week diminishes from week to week. My beer doesn't always improve in time, it can also be sad to notice some desirable flavours and aromas diminish with time.

Between weeks 3 and 4 from mash day, every day I really notice changes in things like malt and hop flavour and aroma, and the mellowing of esters. This is usually the second week of bottle conditioning for me. Flavours and aromas that I wanted to have that are strong or unbalanced will possibly/probably mellow and blend into something better after a week or two.

If my beer still tastes bad after after a month then I probably did something wrong. While putting my bad beer in a dark forgotten place for a year doesn't take much effort, instead of putting the whole disaster out of sight and out of mind, I would rather work out where I went wrong. If I have flavours like cardboard, band-aids, butter or yoghurt in my beer then I have a problem. Aging a bad beer is not going to help me make better beer in the future. The best thing that can come from making bad beer is working out where I went wrong and changing that part of the process so I never make beer like that again.

A brief description of off flavours and what produces them can be found at The common Homebrew Off flavors and aromas in your beer along with the symptoms,causes and remedies..

If your English Pale Ale tastes like bubblegum or cloves or cinammon then you probably fermented too hot for your yeast. High fermentation temp is possibly the easiest way to go wrong when making beer. Fermenting an English or American Ale at 18*C (64*F) will give very different results than the same beer fermented at 22*C (71*F). Brewing with an English Ale yeast at 24*C (75*F) or above is not going to produce a beer that tastes like an English Ale. If like me you can't afford to, or be bothered to, control your fermentation temperature then you should choose a style of beer and a yeast that is suitable for your environment.

I ferment on the floor under my kitchen table, so during winter and spring I can ferment at about 20*C (68*F).This is an acceptable fermentation temperature for a lot of ales. During summer my cold water temperature doesn't get below 22*C (72*F) so my wort chiller won't cool any lower than that temperature. Fermentation temperature under my kitchen table during summer tends to be about 26*C (79*F) or higher so I'm brewing Saison at this time of year. This is a style that is often brewed at 30*C (86*F) so it's a problem for me keeping my fermentation temperature high enough instead of low enough. If I had a basement or garage that was around 6*C (43*F) in winter then I would probably be brewing lager at that time of year. But I don't have a basement or a garage so I don't brew lager. I'd like to have a temperature contolled chest freezer to ferment in so I can brew any style at any time of the year, but until I get one I will brew beer styles that suit the ambient temperature under my kitchen table.

If you have a sour taste in a beer and you saw a film develop on top during fermentation then you probably had an infection. The reason people are always talking about good sanitation when they talk about home brewing is because it is very important. If you want to brew a sour beer then do it on purpose. Unplanned innoculations are unlikely to yield nice results. I like sour beers, but if I make one I want to make it on purpose. I don't want to start out intending to make a pale ale that I later try to convince myself has some redeeming features vaguely resembling a Lambic.

Sometimes unexpected flavours can be good. I have had a nice unexpected Kiwi fruit flavour in one beer. At another time I made beer with some nice unexpected bubblegum flavours by fermenting with a strain of English Ale yeast at high temperature. Generally though I find unexpected flavours to be unwanted flavours, and there's a big difference between a nice subtle kiwi fruit flavour and a disturbing wet dog aroma.

I have also packed away some bad beer hoping it will improve. After reading this thread tonight I put a bottle that I packed away about 8 months ago into the fridge tonight and sampled it again. It was really bad a while ago, and while it's not as bad as I remember, it's still not a good beer. And plenty of beer I have made since then has been good without having to put it away for a any more than a week.

Putting your bad beer away might improve it but it's no replacement for making good beer in the first place. My advice is to use a yeast that suits your fermentation temperature and practice good sanitation. Then you will probably make beer that dosn't need to be stashed away for a year before it is drinkable.

Cheers,

Jaf.
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Old 09-21-2008, 07:54 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eviljafar View Post
Putting your bad beer away might improve it but it's no replacement for making good beer in the first place. My advice is to use a yeast that suits your fermentation temperature and practice good sanitation. Then you will probably make beer that dosn't need to be stashed away for a year before it is drinkable.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that waiting a year is the way they want to brew, only that in the event something does go wrong, they might not want to pour it out.

Of course we want to learn from our mistakes, and not repeat them, but it's a nice consolation when that mistake does not condemn a batch of beer to certain doom.

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Old 09-22-2008, 05:27 PM   #48
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Update....

At a Pirate party on Friday at my buddy's house we discovered a 6 of the beer that I gave him back in May, in the bottom of his keezer....

It was even better then the bottles I had.

Since the party was with brewers and their swmbo's I was quite pleased to be told by everyone that those beers were the best homebrews of any that we were drinking...This was coming from people with several more years brewing under their belt. They could not believe the story I told them about how it was brewed...

They said it could have stood up to any micro amber ale out there....They said, it may have been the best beer I ever brewed.

That's a compliment I readily received considering it came from such distinguished brewers...



And Jaf, next time you want to post a huge counter to what someone has written, start a new thread....or a new blog....Bad form to threadjack...

There is a very specific reason this one was written...Which obviously you didn't seem to get for whatever reason...

It has to do with the fact that MANY new brewers dump out batches of beer that they initially perceive as being "bad" for various reasons.....Usually mostly dealing with the misperception of greenness as being a bad batch, which A LOT OF NOOBS ADMIT TO DOING!

(I even went into the reasons FOR the off flavors I got....I know a little bit about what I'm doing here...)

It proves that having patience CAN be a virtue...it is NOT about brewing BETTER beer. It's about not panicking and seeing if maybe a batch is salvageable....Which usually it is...It's better to try and see and probably have a drinkable beer come out of it, and not wasting your time and money....

It's about not committing the sin of alcohol abuse by dumping out beer.

This thread has over 3,000 reads since I posted it...that's a lot of views. And hopefully that translates into a lot of beer not being unnecessarily dumped out....
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Last edited by Revvy; 09-22-2008 at 05:37 PM.
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Old 09-22-2008, 05:46 PM   #49
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+1 revvy.......
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Old 09-22-2008, 08:04 PM   #50
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I enjoyed this post. But one question springs to mind. Can the same be said of yeast itself? I have my first batch in the barrel now conditioning as per my other post, the dried yeast came with the kit. But in my cupboard I found a pack of dried brewers yeast dated "Use by Jan 99". As someone who hates wasting anything - can it still be used on it's own or in addition to other yeast in my next batch?


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