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Old 08-26-2014, 10:04 PM   #1
Merlinus
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Default my first extract - questions

Hello, im planing to brew my first extract beers. Before i brewed for 4 years with kits. I made my own recipes. I did read a lot of books and forum articles, but i still have a few questions.

so here are the questions:

1) is the method ok ?
2) should i use 12 liters or 12.5 liters to get 9.5 liters of brew in the fermentor ?
3) if i get 9 liters of beer in the fermentor , it's ok to add 500 ml of water ? it will be diluted too much ?
4) it is too much sugar compared to malt extract ? 500 grams its about 20-22% of the total fermentables
5) the steeping malts are ok ? also the quantities ? they are too few or too much ?
6) the final gravities are too high ?
7) its ok to move the wort from the kettle to the fermentor by simply pouring it (after cooled) ? or should i use an auto-siphon ?
8) do i need to use irish moss ?
9) i like the trappist and abbey beers, with these recipes, will i get anywhere close to them ?

recipes & method below

Here are the recipes for the Dubbel & Tripel beers:

dubbel – 7% - 7.5% (og 1074 - fg 1019) ibu 20-22 - srm 27-28

batch size: 9.5 liters

12 liters of water
1.3 kg malt extract light (60 min)
500 gr brown candi sugar (15 min)
90 gr priming sugar

125 gr malt belgian special b (steep 30 min)
125 gr malt german abbey (steep 30 min)
100 gr malt belgian biscuit (steep 30 min)
75 gr malt belgian chocolate (steep 30 min)
75 gr malt german wheat (steep 30 min)

11 gr hamei styrian goldings (bittering) (60 min)
9 gr hamei hallertau mittelfrueh (flavor) (15 min)
7 gr hamei hallertau mittelfrueh (aroma) (5 min)

7 gr crushed coriander(15 min)
7 gr liquorice (15 min)
5 gr curacao peel (15 min)

yeast: Wyeast 1762 - Belgian Abbey II™

tripel - abv 8.5% - 9% (og 1087 fg - 1022) ibu 31-33 - srm 7.0

batch size: 9.5 liters

12 liters of water
1.7 kg malt extract light (60 min)
500 gr light candy sugar (15 min)
90 gr priming sugar

125 gr malt german carapils (steep 30 min)
125 gr malt german abbey (steep 30 min)
75 gr malt belgian biscuit (steep 30 min)
50 gr malt german wheat (steep 30 min)

20 gr hamei styrian goldings (bittering) (60 min)
12 gr hamei hallertau mittelfrueh (flavor) (15 min)
6 gr hamei hallertau mittelfrueh (aroma) (5 min)

7 gr crushed coriander (15 min)
5 gr curacao peel (15 min)
5 gr liquorice (15 min)
5 gr elderflowers (15 min)

yeast: Wyeast 1762 - Belgian Abbey II™

the method i will use is this:

1. Fill the brew pot with 12 liters of cool water. Turn the heat on and bring the water to 72° C. Remove the brew pot from the heat and place specialty grain bag in the pot. Allow grains to steep for 30 minutes.
2. Remove specialty grains from the brew pot. Allow the grains to drain, avoid squeezing. With a sterile cup take some water from the pot and rinse them.
3. Add the malt extract to the water. Stir the extract until it is completely dissolved ! (1-2 minutes)

4. Place the brew pot back on the heat and bring the wort to a rolling boil.

5. Add the Bittering hops for 60 minutes.

6. Add the Candi Sugar, Flavor Hops and the Spices with 15 minutes left in boil (45 Minutes after adding the bittering hops).
7. Add the Aroma Hops with 5 minutes left in boil - if needed. (55 Minutes after adding the bittering hops).

8. After 60 minutes of boiling remove brew pot from heat. Put the lid on.
9. Cool the wort in an ice bath and cold water in your sink. Change the water every 5 minutes. (until it’s below 28 ° C)

10. Add the wort to the primary fermenter.
11. If the wort quantity is under 9 liters, top it to a little over 9 liters.

12. Aerate the wort by stirring for 2-3 minutes.

13. Take Original Gravity reading and record it.

14. When wort is at or below 23° C pitch the yeast.

15. Seal the primary fermenter with lid (for buckets) then attach the airlock half filled with sanitizing solution.



Fermentation should be completed within 10-14 days.



16. Take and record Final Gravity.
17. Siphon the beer out of the primary fermenter in the bottling bucket.

18. Bring 200 ml of water to boil and add the Priming sugar. Stir and simmer for 10 minutes.

19. Add the priming solution to the bottling bucket. Stir a little the beer.

20. Bottle the Beer!

thanks !

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Old 08-27-2014, 01:44 AM   #2
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None of it is 'bad'.

Too many flavor additions for me, let the yeast give you the flavors.

I use a lot of sugar in my Belgians, and that seems like a lot too me.

For the dubbel, I think I would just stick with the Special B, and drop the rest of the grains, and just the carapils for the tripel.

Wheat, abbey, and biscuit should be mashed. If you want to use them, I'd recommend adding about 0.25 kg 2-row to the mix and steeping (mashing). Use 3 liters of water per kg of grain. Heat water to 72 C, remove from heat, add grains, and steep/mash for 30 mins. Drain, rinse grains with hot water, and continue as normal.

Some Belgian yeasts can take a while to finish. 10 to 14 days may be too soon. As you get to the end of fermentation, raise the temp to near 30 to help dry the beer out.

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Old 08-27-2014, 09:58 AM   #3
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hello. thanks for the tips. so i should reduce the amount of sugar and increase the dry malt extract ?

about the malts, i would like to keep them for the extra aromas. what if i reduce the amount of each malt by 25 grams ? the wheat i thought to add it for the extra body and head. but for Wheat, abbey, and biscuit i just wanted to steep them.

for steeping i wanted to steep the malts in the total amout of my water, 12 liters. i will then take them off, rinse with hot water, drain them, and add the all the dry malt extract, hops etc. i will boil all the water because i have a big kettle. its ok ? or i have to make the steeping in a small quantity of water, and then add more water and the dry malt extract ?

if i steep 350 grams of malt, in 1 liter of water, in the final i will be left with 500 ml of wort (after the grains absorbs some water), isn't too few to change the aroma/color of 9.5 liters of the final wort ?
thanks !

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Old 08-28-2014, 01:24 AM   #4
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Why not mash? It is not much different from your steeping, except you steep/mash with less water. Abbey malt is basically a base malt, so you can increase that to provide the enzymes to convert the starches.

Once mashed, drain, rinse with hot water, and then make up the volume to the level you want to boil with. Based on what you were planning, this is not much extra effort, and will provide a fuller, more complex beer.

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Old 08-28-2014, 11:34 AM   #5
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well. like this its ok ? (i increased the amount of malts). method of mashing/steeping is below

Dubbel - ABV 7% (OG 1072 FG - 1018) IBU 22 - SRM 27

water:
12 liters

Fermentables:
1.3 kg extract malt light (60 min)
300 gr brown candy sugar (15 min)
90 gr priming sugar

Malts:
250 gr malt belgian special b (steep 30 min)
200 gr malt german abbey (steep 30 min)
75 gr malt belgian biscuit (steep 30 min)
75 gr malt german wheat (steep 30 min)
50 gr malt belgian chocolate (steep 30 min)
total: 650 grams of malts

Hops:
12 gr styrian goldings (amareala) (60 min)
10 gr hallertau mittelfrueh (flavor) (15 min)
8 gr hallertau mittelfrueh (aroma) (5 min)

Spices:
8 gr crushed coriander (15 min)
6 gr curacao peel (15 min)

Yeast:
Wyeast 1762 - Belgian Abbey II™ - fermentare la 22 grade

1. Fill the brew pot with 2 liters of water (3 liters of water for each kg of grains). Turn the heat on and bring the water to 72° C. Remove/put the pot from /on the heat, trying to maintain the temp constant. Place specialty grain bag in the pot. Allow grains to steep for 30 minutes.
2. Add 2-3 liters liters of water in a small pot and boil (needed to rinse the grains).
3. After 30 min, remove the brew kettle from the heat, remove specialty grains from the brew pot. Allow the grains to drain, avoid squeezing. Rinse the grains with some hot water (from the small pot).
4. Top the brew kettle with water until you have 12 liters of water. Bring to boil, then remove from heat !
5. Add the malt extract to the water. Stir the extract until it is completely dissolved ! (2-3 minutes)


6. Place the brew pot back on the heat and bring the wort to a rolling boil.

7. Add the Bittering hops for 60 minutes.

8. Add the Candi Sugar, Flavor Hops and the Spices with 15 minutes left in boil (45 Minutes after adding the bittering hops).
9. Add the Aroma Hops with 5 minutes left in boil - if needed. (55 Minutes after adding the bittering hops).

10. After 60 minutes of boiling remove brew pot from heat. Put the lid on.
11. Cool the wort in an ice bath and cold water in your sink. Change the water every 5 minutes. (until it’s below 28 ° C)
.....

i forgot to tell, that the speciality malts will be crushed with a mill, by my local brewer shop.

let me know if i proceed correctly, and if the recipe its better.

so: i steep/mash all the grains (650 grams) in 2 liters of water at 72° C for 30 min, then remove the bag with the grains, rinse it with another 2 liters of hot water (boiled separately) , then top the brew kettle with cold water until i have 12 liters, bring to boil, then remove from heat and add the malt extracts, stirring well, then bring to boil again, and add the hops, spices etc

correct ?

thanks!

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Old 08-30-2014, 02:34 AM   #6
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Seems fine. I work in US units, so lets just check I've done conversions correctly.

Water volume: I use 1.2 to 1.3 quarts of water to a pound of grain. 1 kg =2.2 lbs, which would need 2.88 - 3.12 quarts water. 1 gallon = 3.8 liters, so a quart is close to a liter, so 3 liters to 1 kg grain is about right.

Temperature: I heat my water to 160/162 F, to end up with 148/150 F after the grain is added. 160 F = 71 C, so 72 C is about right.

When you rinse the grains, use 170 F/ 76 C water. Too high a temp can extract tannins. Unlikely, but better to be safe.

250 gms Special B is 0.55 lbs. Your beer volume is 9.5 liters, or about 2.5 US gallons. That seems like a lot. Look up some recipies. You previously had 125 grams, which seemed about right.

I'd try and get the abbey malt to be 50% of your grain, but you should be ok at 30%. Occasionally stir the mash. It can get worrying trying to maintain mash temps right. Most people think it is critical to have it exact. For an extract brew, I recommend a low mash temp, and for Belgians you want fermentability, so again you want it low. Ideally keep it at 148/150 F (65/66 C). Down to 145 will still work, and the enzymes are still active up to 160+ F. Providing you stay within this range, you will be ok. The sugars you get from this mash is only a small amount of the total, so temp is not critical.

Everything seems fine. Apart from a little more control of water volume and temp, it is very similar to your steep, and I think you will like the results. You will extract more sugars from all the grains, and have less haze forming starches. I think you will notice an improvement.

Good luck.

One additional note: if you like the results, it is easier to mash a larger quantity of grains. It is easier to maintain temp with a larger volume.

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Old 08-30-2014, 09:47 AM   #7
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ok. thanks a lot for the tips and for your time ! i will post the final results here, anyway i will leave the country for 1 month, and its too hot now here anyway, so i will make it in October.

now the grains are:

Dubbel – 7% (OG 1072 - FG 1018) IBU 22 - SRM 25
200 gr malt german abbey (steep 30 min)
125 gr malt belgian special b (steep 30 min)
100 gr malt belgian biscuit (steep 30 min)
75 gr malt belgian chocolate (steep 30 min)
75 gr malt german wheat (steep 30 min)

total grains quantity: 575 grams
abbey its 35%

Tripel - ABV 8.5% (OG 1087 FG - 1022) IBU 33 - SRM 8
225 gr malt german abbey (steep 30 min)
225 gr malt german carapils (steep 30 min)
75 gr malt belgian biscuit (steep 30 min)
75 gr malt german wheat (steep 30 min)

total grains quantity: 600 grams
abbey its 38%

and i will try to make a quad and an imperial stout also, this is how the grains for them looks:

Quadrupel – 10.5% (OG 1107 - FG 1027) IBU 30 - SRM 37

2.2 kg dark malt extract (60 min)
300 gr light candy sugar (15 min)
90 gr priming sugar

200 gr malt german abbey (steep 30 min)
125 gr malt belgian special b (steep 30 min)
100 gr malt belgian biscuit (steep 30 min)
100 gr malt belgian chocolate (steep 30 min)
100 gr malt german wheat (steep 30 min)

Imperial Stout 9.5% (OG 1098 - FG 1024) IBU 75 - SRM 40
2 kg dark malt extract (60 min)
330 gr brown candy sguar (15 min)
45 gr priming sugar

200 gr malt german abbey (steep 30 min)
125 gr malt belgian chocolate (steep 30 min)
125 gr malt german roasted barley (steep 30 min)
125 gr malt belgian special b (steep 30 min)
100 gr malt german wheat (steep 30 min)

21 gr hamei magnum (amareala) (60 min)
22 gr hamei hallertau mittelfrueh (flavor) (15 min)
12 gr hamei hallertau mittelfrueh (aroma) (5 min)

Wyeast 1762 - Belgian Abbey II™

its ok ?

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Old 09-16-2014, 12:55 PM   #8
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apparent attenuation for both dubbel and tripel is 75% in http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebre...pe/calculator/

i use the yeast wyeast 1762 ? is it possible to be higher than 75% ? for triple i was planing to achive an attenuation of 85%-88% but in that case i should lower the malt extract and sugar for a lower abv

thx

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Old 09-18-2014, 01:13 AM   #9
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Mash grains low (145 - 150 F), use about 20% simple sugar, and raise ferment temp at the end of fermentation, and you should get somewhere around 85 - 90% attenuation. 75% is too low, especially for a tripel.

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Old 09-18-2014, 10:45 AM   #10
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ok thanks. if i try to get an atteunation of 85% then the recipe should be modified, otherwise the beer would get to strong. here it is how it should look for 85% attenuation


Tripel - ABV 8.5% (OG 1077 FG - 1011) IBU 36 - SRM 7.4


Apparent attenuation: 85%
Efficiency: 60%

Fermentables:
1.42 kg light malt extract (60 min) - 58.7%
400 gr light candy sugar (10 min) - 16.5%
80 gr priming sugar

Malts:
225 gr malt german abbey (steep 30 min)
225 gr malt german carapils (steep 30 min)
75 gr malt belgian biscuit (steep 30 min)
75 gr malt german wheat (steep 30 min)

Hops:
20 gr styrian goldings (bittering) (60 min)
10 gr hallertau mittelfrueh (flavor) (30 min)
9 gr hallertau mittelfrueh (aroma) (5 min)

Spices & Others:
8 gr crushed corriander (5 min)
1/2 tsp yeast nutrient (fermentator)

Yeast:
Wyeast 1762 - Belgian Abbey II™

the recipe is still ok ?

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