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Old 10-30-2012, 03:18 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by BMGfan
Guys just because you've "brewed x number of batches with cloudy starsan and not had an infection" that doesn't mean **** frankly.

Sanitization is a precaution we take to ensure that the yeast takes hold and wins the battle or spoilers. Assuming your equipment is properly cleaned prior to using, there's a good chance you won't get an infection even without sanitizing.

Look when I listen to Jamil Zanichev and John Palmer sit down and chat about sanitization with Jon Herskovits (the guy who invented starsan), and I hear Jon say that it's "not effective if the pH is above 3.5 or if it's cloudy", then that's good enough for me, and should be good enough for anybody. John went on to say that the cloudiness is metals precipitating out of solution, and that if you have hard or harder water that the precipitation process can happen immediately. He said if the metals precipitate out immediately then you need to make your starsan with distilled water.

Look, I don't care what any of you guys do in your own brewing, but don't perpetuate wrong information. Who do you think is the better expert?

You can listen to the conversation for yourself here: http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/469
Really, so you think that you know better than experienced brewers just because you heard somebody say something and you believe it? I frankly don't care what people say, I move by experience. I question everything that everyone tells me until I prove it to myself. And frankly, Palmer's data on How to Brew is so woefully dated that although I guess he deserves a tip of the hat for setting a good groundwork I really don't pay him too much credence. Why, just last night I read a section he did on autolysis, and it was pretty ridiculous. Palmer is definitely not a scientist.
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Old 10-30-2012, 03:21 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by unionrdr
It doesn't matter WHO they are. If it tests out at 3 or lower-meaning acidic-then it's fine & where "Jon" intended it to be function-wise. We've made several of these authors,etc change their tune by proving them wrong. No difference here. And many times,the guy that starts the company isn't always smarter than the people doing the science for him or her. I've seen very successful people with a 5th grade education that you guys would be sure to think are professors. Just goes to show that research & observation are what really drives science. We have the observations,& experiment accordingly. Why does that make us wrong & them right mearly because of their standing???
2+2= 4 regardless of WHO adds it up.
It does matter when the guy in question is a chemist and invented the product in question.

Look, as I said above you're welcome to do whatever you desire in your own brewing. Really, you'll have beer and as long as you're happy with it that's all that matters. But for my money and the sake of my beer I'm going to listen to the guy who invented the product. When I buy a $30 bottle of starsan that lasts 2 years and makes 160gal of starsan, its not like his reccomendation is meant to line his pockets
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Old 10-30-2012, 03:26 PM   #23
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2+2= 4 regardless of WHO adds it up.
I'll take the science and the tests over the mouth piece every time. If the PH is <3 then it will santize no matter what color.
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Old 10-30-2012, 03:30 PM   #24
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Prove to me HE is the chemist improving the product. Some folks have one good idea in their life & make millions off it that don't even have the education I do. I tutored people in college. But I don't think I'm any better than anyone else,nor do I expect my words to have more weight mearly because of who I am. But that's what you're saying. And other scientists,researchwers,etc always tend to build on the work of the previous ones. So don't be so narrow minded that you overlook the simplistic,which this is. Ime,the solution is always something simple. And some of the people perpetuating some things are these authors who aren't exactly the einstiens you think they are. This guy may well have been an underclassman. Many of the ones who get lucky in business usually are.
And even this guy didn't start out at the top. He started small & built his way up. So don't put him or them on too high a pedastal. After going to a business college,I've seen how things really are. Up to & including Mr Gates.
And thanks trokair. I was just trying to state the facts as they are from my own observations. And isn't that what science is all about?
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Old 10-31-2012, 03:22 AM   #25
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Here's the proof you requested.

http://www.forcesolutionsinc.com/team/Charlie-Talley

A small excerpt.

Quote:
Mr. Talley is a distinguished chemist and a microbiologist. He has over 35 years in the chemical specialty area and 13 years in the microbiological area. This dual role allows he to understand the requirement for personal hygiene products and their roll in a complete sanitary environment.
The point of this entire disagreement is that you are perpetuating and ultimately promoting untested and off label use of a product to a very new subset of impressionable young brewers. The posters in the beginners board are the ones that will likely have the most difficulty with sanitation issues anyway.

PLUS, you chose to ignore the fact that the guy we are endorsing says you can use the product forever if you use distilled water or that passed through reverse osmosis filters.

So, as I see it we have provided plenty of well tested and reputable sources of information. And there hasn't been adequate reciprocation, and no getting lucky a few times is not a good argument.
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Old 10-31-2012, 04:17 AM   #26
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The point of this entire disagreement is that you are perpetuating and ultimately promoting untested and off label use of a product to a very new subset of impressionable young brewers. The posters in the beginners board are the ones that will likely have the most difficulty with sanitation issues anyway.

[...]

And there hasn't been adequate reciprocation, and no getting lucky a few times is not a good argument.
There is no reasonable argument against anyone here describing their process and their experiences. If it doesn't agree with an expert's opinion or experience, that is reason to be skeptical, but you can't simply discard all anecdotal evidence as meaningless. Experts are fallible, and inventors are not automatically the most knowledgable about their inventions.

Less philosophically, lab conditions don't always match practical situations, and experts often describe things in a subtly different language from others. To a microbiologist, sanitizer that is "effective" may need to kill 99.99% of the bacteria after a 1-minute exposure. In the home brewery, "effective" may only require killing 95% in 5 minutes because that's what it takes to bring the actual risk of infection to a tolerable level.

I'm all for following the instructions and employing best practices. However, we should also keep in mind what happens to the new brewers who faithfully obey the instructions on their Mr. Beer kit.
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:42 AM   #27
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I use distilled water and it still turns cloudy almost immediately.

Side note, in the short time I've been brewing, I have heard a lot of people talking out of their asses. Is there a thread keeping track of homebrew myths?

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Old 11-02-2012, 01:48 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krovitz
I use distilled water and it still turns cloudy almost immediately.

Side note, in the short time I've been brewing, I have heard a lot of people talking out of their asses. Is there a thread keeping track of homebrew myths?
There should be! Start one now if you want to be father to a massive and controversial thread! You can add sparging above 170, sugar makes beer cidery, and higher OG beers take longer to carbonate just for the fact that they are higher OG
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Old 11-02-2012, 02:00 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icenine61 View Post
Here's the proof you requested.

http://www.forcesolutionsinc.com/team/Charlie-Talley

A small excerpt.



The point of this entire disagreement is that you are perpetuating and ultimately promoting untested and off label use of a product to a very new subset of impressionable young brewers. The posters in the beginners board are the ones that will likely have the most difficulty with sanitation issues anyway.

PLUS, you chose to ignore the fact that the guy we are endorsing says you can use the product forever if you use distilled water or that passed through reverse osmosis filters.

So, as I see it we have provided plenty of well tested and reputable sources of information. And there hasn't been adequate reciprocation, and no getting lucky a few times is not a good argument.
This is a public forum where people express their opinions based on their own experiences , if you don't like it, too bad, get over it.
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Old 11-02-2012, 02:01 AM   #30
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OK - so how long is the Starsan concentrate good for?

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