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Old 10-04-2012, 03:36 PM   #31
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Idk what you where reading? But i didn't see that much helpful info...
That's what I was thinking too.... first half of the thread is like watching the blind lead the blind.

OP, Plenty of extract kits come with the instructions to leave the grains in as you heat to a boil, removing just before boiling. People have made lots of good beer using those kits.
What you have here isn't a boogeyman. Your beer's undoubtedly going to be fine, and I'd be willing to bet free of any unwanted tannins as well.
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Old 10-04-2012, 05:29 PM   #32
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You're right, I completely forgot about the pH factor. Doh!

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Old 10-04-2012, 10:43 PM   #33
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Frodo, just because you did something incorrectly, and didn't notice a problem, doesn't mean there were no off flavors such as astringency.

...

Maybe you don't detect them because of the style, that doesn't mean they aren't there. Or maybe you don't know what the off flavor tastes like.
The danger is you are giving misinformation to others, and claiming Tannin extraction is a myth. If you believe this, conduct some experiments, and post your results. But until you have proof, don't tell others to follow a bad process.

...

"To save money I don't use Starsan, I urinate on my equipment, and have never had an infection. Infections are just boogeyman speak".
Would you take anecdotal evidence like that?
I was giving the OP an example of when I did something that is very similar to what he was asking about and my results were fine. I've read a lot, in books and on this forum, and who knows where else, about tannin extraction, but some of that discussion is whether it is often an overstated risk. I don't think anyone prior to me had told the OP that tannin extraction might be overstated as a risk. Not too long ago brewers thought leaving beer in the primary for long would lead to autolysis; now not so much. Why is that? Improvement in ingredients, particularly yeast quality? A lot of it, maybe, is that it had just become "common knowledge" that you want the beer off the trub ASAP... What if no one ever questioned the "common knowledge"; would we ever improve anything if no one ever questioned whether what we're doing is based in fact?

And just when exactly did I tell others to follow my example and boil grains in their wort? I believe I said I hadn't thought through the process and couldn't figure out how to remove the grains, didn't I? I'd appreciate it if you'd pay attention to what I wrote before accusing me of giving people bad advice. I was not proclaiming that I know everything about tannins; I wasn't suggesting that everyone boil grains in their wort. I was indicating that the risk might very well be overstated, and was looking for more than a "what I read in this book was this" response.

FYI you should try that pissing on your equipment idea.
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:11 PM   #34
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Frodo,
Not only were you offering bad advice, you were mocking those who didn't agree with you.
If you were to perform a set of experiments on the subject of Tannin extraction, and post the results here, I, and probably many would be interested.
If you think Tannin extraction is a myth, get yourself a Ph meter and thermometer and go to work.

"Common knowledge" is not always correct. But those questioning it tend to present proof, they don't just say "That's nonsense".


No Chill is scoffed at by some, but it's widely practiced in Australia. They have collectively brewed enough to offer some proof.

As opposed to some one who says "I do X and nothing bad happens, so X is a myth".

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Old 10-04-2012, 11:57 PM   #35
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I boiled a whole pound of grains in my boil kettle once (couldn't figure out how to get them out, using a "new" idea I had that wasn't thought through), and didn't notice a single negative result in the finished beer. I wouldn't purposely do it again, but I think tannin extraction from high temps with a fairly minor amount of grain is wayyy overrated.

edit: just to be clear, I BOILED THEM FOR 60 MINUTES in the boil - didn't see the tannin extraction boogyman after it.
Do you see where it says "I wouldn't purposely do it again, but I think tannin extraction from high temps with a fairly minor amount of grain is wayyy overrated."?

That post was in response to what appeared to me to be a bunch of people giving advice to the OP that might well lead him to think he'd ruined his beer, when in reality he probably hadn't.
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Old 10-05-2012, 01:47 PM   #36
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Frodo,


No Chill is scoffed at by some, but it's widely practiced in Australia. They have collectively brewed enough to offer some proof.
Not to change the subject but what exactly is the no chill method?
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:11 PM   #37
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It just means you let the wort cool on it's own after the boil, without using any methods of cooling it quickly

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Old 10-05-2012, 07:31 PM   #38
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From all the recipes I have and books I've read, steeping should happen once you have your original 2.5-3 gallons of water between 155-160 degrees. From speaking with the guys at my brew shop, anything above 15 minutes is too long. Remember the specialty garins are only inended for color and flavor additions and not so much for any reasonable portion of your actual sugar build. Unless I'm short on base malt and want to keep them in longer (which will take on some tannins), stick to no more then 15 minutes. Don't forget, how thin the grains are milled will also have an impact on what's extracted if you're steeping. Most brew shops mill for mashing not steeping.

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Old 10-06-2012, 02:18 PM   #39
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Default Having to pull out the bible on you, this early in the day??

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That's what I was thinking too.... first half of the thread is like watching the blind lead the blind.

OP, the guy telling you that you've extracted all sorts of tannins from steeping grains is either making it up or is regurgitating something he/she read regardless of having experience with the subject or not.
As someone else pointed out, if high temps caused tannin extraction by themselves, people wouldn't use decoction mashes. Tannin production/extraction is much more closely linked to mash pH than it is to mash temp. In steeping, I don't really think any of this is a concern unless you've actually boiled the grains, and even then, I doubt you'd pull noticeable tannins out.
Plenty of extract kits come with the instructions to leave the grains in as you heat to a boil, removing just before boiling. People have made lots of good beer using those kits.
What you have here isn't a boogeyman, it's someone giving you bad advice. Your beer's undoubtedly going to be fine, and I'd be willing to bet free of any unwanted tannins as well.


Since I'm not in the habit of someone calling me or my brethren the boogeyman, I got up this morning, inspected by East Coast IPA fermenting away, and grabbed the bible or Homebrew scripture if you prefer.

It's not often I have to go Papazian on someone but here is goes.

Page 31 of The Home Brewer's Companion/The Essential Handbook under the sub-heading
"Using specialty malts without Mashing"
and I quote => For the ideal extraction of the favorable qualities of any malt, the crushed grain should never be brought to a boil. Some recipes and procedures guide beginning brewers to bring the specialty malts just to a boil and quickly remove them from the heat source. This is a simple procedure designed to encourage their use by beginning brewers. For those who desire to improve the quality of their beers with a small additional investment in time and attention, the grains should NEVER be steeped in water who temperature exceeds 170 degrees F (77 degrees C). The extraction of UNDESIRABLE TANNIN and ASTRINGENT characters is minimized with a lower-temperature steep" end quote

Let's remember one thing here, professional brewing in big vessels and homebrewing are two different things.

Have fun brewing and open a beer and enjoy!
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:25 PM   #40
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It just means you let the wort cool on it's own after the boil, without using any methods of cooling it quickly
Yeah and unless you want to invest in a wort chiller, buy a large bag of ice drop it in a big sink, fill it partially with water, add the ice, make sure your kettle doesn't sit too high in the ice water to avoid it tipping over (I use the one flat hand underneath the kettle bottom technique) to determine the amount of water needed. If you don't have enough ice, add from your fridge.

It should chill in less then 30-35 minutes below your desirable 80 degrees. It will cool down even further when you add the additional water to bring it to 5 gallons.
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