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Old 10-04-2012, 10:05 AM   #21
beerman0001
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"You probably pulled out a lot of tannins "
I am not sure where this misconception started but it just is not true. Grains are boiled all the time when you do a decoction mash with no issues. Tannin extraction mostly happens when you fly sparg and let the ph get too low.



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Old 10-04-2012, 10:26 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kepling5001
Thank you guys for the helpful info
Idk what you where reading? But i didn't see that much helpful info... If someone ever tells you your beer is ruined before fermentation/conditioning is complete you should proceed to ignore everything they say after...

You thought that steeping the grains at a temp approaching 212 might have hurt your beer. That's understandable, it probably didn't help it. But the complaint you had was a bitter angel while fermenting, all beers smell biter while fermenting, that's the krausen (wort proportions, dead yeast, hop residue.... The greenish brown gunk you see on the sides of the fermenter), it's bitter by nature and it coming out makes the beer taste better.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter8-2-2.html
An intro to it by palmer.

Secondly, if you did pull an extreme amount of tannins from your grains (unlikely). The solution is to condition longer, age will mellow out the flavor and heal your beer.

Congrats, you've made beer! Keep us posted, and start figuring out your next brew.


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Old 10-04-2012, 10:37 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kepling5001 View Post
Long story short I made my first beer kit yesterday that was a kit for an stout. The directions (I know I shouldn't have even looked at them) said to put the steeping grains that came with the kit into a Muslim bag and keep it in until right before the boil.
A Muslim bag? Are these grains from the Middle East? You might want to watch out for bottle bombs!
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Old 10-04-2012, 10:44 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt3989 View Post
Idk what you where reading? But i didn't see that much helpful info... If someone ever tells you your beer is ruined before fermentation/conditioning is complete you should proceed to ignore everything they say after...

You thought that steeping the grains at a temp approaching 212 might have hurt your beer. That's understandable, it probably didn't help it. But the complaint you had was a bitter angel while fermenting, all beers smell biter while fermenting, that's the krausen (wort proportions, dead yeast, hop residue.... The greenish brown gunk you see on the sides of the fermenter), it's bitter by nature and it coming out makes the beer taste better.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter8-2-2.html
An intro to it by palmer.

Secondly, if you did pull an extreme amount of tannins from your grains (unlikely). The solution is to condition longer, age will mellow out the flavor and heal your beer.

Congrats, you've made beer! Keep us posted, and start figuring out your next brew.

Thanks for the hope! Haha...yeah I feel a lot more confident now that I've tasted the beer that the finished beer will probaly be OK. On another note...stop making fun of my middle eastern bags
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Old 10-04-2012, 10:57 AM   #25
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As noted above, steeping at a high temperature doesn't by itself extract tannins. In fact, you can boil the grains without extracting tannins to any great extent. Where you extract the tannins is with too high of a pH and high temps. If your pH remains low, no tannins. If you keep the temperature low you get no tannins either. Most of the time the grains will be low pH and will prevent your steeping water from being too high in pH but if your water was very alkaline, you could have problems. That situation is unlikely.

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Old 10-04-2012, 11:23 AM   #26
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This is probably a dumb question but how does the water pH get low? Is it just part of tap water or something else?

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Old 10-04-2012, 11:56 AM   #27
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>.This is probably a dumb question but how does the water pH get low? Is it just part of tap water or something else?

The grains will lower Ph, especially darker grains. Acid Malt is sprayed with lactic acid and will also lower Ph.
Water salts can also lower Ph.
If you use distilled water, there is no buffering, and your Ph may drop more than you would like.



Quote:
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oh ok... any empirical evidence, or just boogeyman speak?
Frodo, just because you did something incorrectly, and didn't notice a problem, doesn't mean there were no off flavors such as astringency.
Maybe you don't detect them because of the style, that doesn't mean they aren't there. Or maybe you don't know what the off flavor tastes like.

The most important point is to keep the Ph low, so you don't want to steep in a large volume of water.
From what I have read, Ph is the main determinant in leaching, but temperature can increase the leaching. Without proof, steeping grains should be steeped, at less than 170, then removed, not boiled. There may be no problem if you do, but it's not helping you, and may leach some Tannins. RM-MN made a good comment, which I pasted below.



The danger is you are giving misinformation to others, and claiming Tannin extraction is a myth. If you believe this, conduct some experiments, and post your results. But until you have proof, don't tell others to follow a bad process.

"To save money I don't use Starsan, I urinate on my equipment, and have never had an infection. Infections are just boogeyman speak".
Would you take anecdotal evidence like that?

"Water treatments are BS, I use my tap water which is alkaline and has Chlorine and my beer tastes great". (maybe the person only brews stouts, and the beer isn't as good as they think, or as good as it could be)



As RM-MN said
>>As noted above, steeping at a high temperature doesn't by itself extract tannins. In fact, you can boil the grains without extracting tannins to any great extent. Where you extract the tannins is with too high of a pH and high temps. If your pH remains low, no tannins. If you keep the temperature low you get no tannins either. Most of the time the grains will be low pH and will prevent your steeping water from being too high in pH but if your water was very alkaline, you could have problems.
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Old 10-04-2012, 03:05 PM   #28
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My first batch, I boiled my grains for 20 minutes. Beer turned out fine.

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Old 10-04-2012, 03:21 PM   #29
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Sounds good i am hoping it turns out fine....luckily mine never boiled was just in the pot for the first 15-20 mins before boil

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Old 10-04-2012, 03:23 PM   #30
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Never throw out your beer before it's done and has sat for awhile. Beer can make miraculous recoveries. (And it can go horribly south.) You shouldn't give up on it before it has a chance to age a bit.



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