Inexpensive fast cooling

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noobie

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Anything wrong with pouring 3 gallons of hot wort onto 2 gallons of ice to make a 5 gallon batch?
 
Not in and of itself, but your hops extraction will be on the poor side, you might need to raise the amount of hops you use or take it into account if you use any kind of calculator. That being said, I usually dump 3.5 gallons on a 10 pound bag of ice and then pitch (I usually leave the extract out until the boil is over, to compensate for the smaller boil volume).
 
well it could contaminate the wort unless you controlled the making of the ice. I just use an ice bath in my sink. Fill the sink with cold water and a bag of ice, Cools down my 2 gallon wort in less then 20 minutes.
 
First: it's not very effective
Well lets assume the hot wort is at 180~ (92.5 C), and the ice is @ (30~, about 0 C). The resulting 5 g will still be about 55C or *100 F.

If you're going to use ice, let the wort cool to 90~ F then add the ice. The last 20 degrees takes the longest IMO.

Alternatively, get a chiller or go for the "no chill" method if you don't have access to a method of chilling quickly.
Second: It's almost certainly not sterile.
 
as ice has air in it and pouring the hot liquid onto it with the splashing, wouldnt this oxygenate the wort and oxidize it as well as the points above?
 
My concern would be where the ice came from. If it's commercial ice, I would be concerned about not only the water content, but the sanitation conditions under which it was handled, packaged, etc. before adding that "unknown" to my beer. However, if you're making it yourself in sanitized conditions with same water you'd top-off with, it should be OK.

I'm not a math whiz, but if you have say, 2 gal. of wort @ 200F and you mix it with 2 gal. of 32F water (a 168-degree difference in the two equal amounts) you will end up with 4 gal. of liquid @ 84F. Which would mean 3 gal. of freshly-boiled wort mixed with 2 gal. of ice would leave you considerably above most rec'd pitching temps.
 
ice is colder than 32F.......

most freezers are set to around -5F. so -5F is probably a good place to start for ice temperature.

you also benefit from the specific heat of fusion. changing phases takes energy. 144 BTU/lb. give or take. provides much more cooling load than the above posters have modeled.
 
If you do it, know that you will not be the first and you will still make beer. Could you get an infection due to contaminants in the ice? Possibly. Will it happen? Hard to say, but probably not likely. Will it oxygenate the wort? Some, but this is desirable before fermentation.

All things being equal, do what works for you. Know that this is not the "preferred" method. However when using an immersion chiller like most of us do you have to leave the top off the pot so you can keep stirring. That is a huge avenue for contaminants. will it happen? Maybe, but not likely.

The key is to control everything you can about your sanitation but relax and know that as long as you pitch enough yeast, they will make the fermenter hostile to any nasties that might get in before the nasties can outcompete them.
 
I use both sanitized ice and also an ice bath and it does speed up the cooling process. I soak a Rubbermaid or Ziplock food storage container in Starsan (lid also) then pour bottled water into it before freezing. I use 2 sterilized tongs to lift the ice block and lower it into the wort. I don't like wasting water so it works out fine for me.
The last 20 degrees is the hardest to cool and the only thing I can do is stir the wort gently to move around the cooler water.
I've only done this with an aluminum pot and I'm hoping that it will work for my thicker stainless steel pot.
 
Lets presume the boiling wort is immediately chilled to a pitchable temp, and there is no potential for oxygenating or contaminating wort while we rinse ice with it... This is still a bad idea if we are looking for a cheap chill.

How does the 3 gallon post boil volume adjustment alter the recipe? I don't know, either. I am just certain it does. Recipes are developed to create a certain environment in the mash, probably more so than any other part of the process. I am thinking the increased density of the mash will impact everything... the fermentable sugar, hop oils and proteins will be imparted to the mash in different ratios than expected of a 5 gallon recipe. Upping your grain bill to achieve a similar result to the 5 gal batch might be in order. Is that inexpensive?
 
Okay fine.
2 gallons of ice at -5F is 6962 grams. 3 gallons of water at 180F is 11020g.
Combined weight of 17982g
Specific heat of water is 4.186 J/g*C.

Joules released when melting 6962 grams of ice is 2328402 J.
Mixture of 2 gallons of 32F water, and 3 gallons of 180F water is 5 gallons at 122.7F.
Accounting for heat of fusion, Tf= (-2328402/(4.186*17982)) + 122.7 =91.7 C.

Oh look my previous post off the top of my head was actually 1.7C lower...


If however you can use a cold water bath to lower the wort to about 150-160, the resulting water/ice mixture should end up around pitching temps ~upper 60s to mid 70s.
 
I have used bags of ice lots of times and it works like a charm. Quick, easy and never had an infection. Don't forget ice is cold so bacteria is inhibited, wort is hot so bacteria is inhibited, hops in wort inhibit bacteria. Pitch health yeast and given those odds they will win every time.
 
MattzKauf said:
I have used bags of ice lots of times and it works like a charm. Quick, easy and never had an infection. Don't forget ice is cold so bacteria is inhibited, wort is hot so bacteria is inhibited, hops in wort inhibit bacteria. Pitch health yeast and given those odds they will win every time.
Click to expand...

I'm glad to hear that it's always worked for you.

Odds, however, are against this working every time. Partly because the wort is still too warm to pitch the yeast. Warm wort in the "danger zone" is more likely to harbor and encourage contaminates. If the wort is cooled to under 90 degrees, and then cold water or ice is added and the wort reaches a temperature in the 60s and yeast is added, then it's likely to be ok.

In my practical experience, 3 gallons of boiling wort + 2 gallons of ice = 100 degree wort. I thought it was a brilliant idea, until I actually tried it. Then I had 5 gallons of 100 degree wort that took hours to cool in an ice bath. It's far easier (and faster) to cool 3 gallons in an ice bath to under 100 degrees, and then add cold water and/or ice to get to 60 degrees or thereabouts and add the yeast.
 
pricelessbrewing said:
Truth, the rate of heat transfer is a linear function of the temperature differential. Boom, science!
Click to expand...

And the heat capacity of both materials involved!

Anyways, my first few batches I would cool the boiling wort in the bathtub with cold water for a bit. When it was no longer scalding to touch the outside of the pot (which I admit is a horrible method), would add water right from the tap on blind faith that it was clean enough to not cause any horrible things to happen. Nothing ever did. My father had a similar method for top up water from extract brewing, just add it right from the faucet and no problems. Your mileage may vary. I've since increased my boil capacity to not need top up water (and on occasion need an extra carboy) and have developed a habit for falling asleep on the couch while it's chilling in the tub. By the time I wake up, it's cooled enough for racking and pitching! Also a non-preferred method.
 
Smith's Grocery, at least where I live, they sell the "Ice is food" ice. Made in controlled environments, and UV lights to kill any cruddies, and the difference, price wise, is no big deal for 10 or so pounds of ice. I was of the cool in a big tub first crowd, and then kill the heat fast, with clean ice or whatever was handy. I recently made myself a 45' x 5/8" dual pass Immersion Chiller, known as Frankenchiller. It's ugly as hell, but with $28.00 to buy the copper, I couldn't resist. In case the term "dual pass" doesn't compute, both coils have the water running the same direction, both in, both out, kinda like putting two ice cubes into a glass, instead of one at a time.
 
pricelessbrewing said:
Okay fine.
2 gallons of ice at -5F is 6962 grams. 3 gallons of water at 180F is 11020g.
Combined weight of 17982g
Specific heat of water is 4.186 J/g*C.

Joules released when melting 6962 grams of ice is 2328402 J.
Mixture of 2 gallons of 32F water, and 3 gallons of 180F water is 5 gallons at 122.7F.
Accounting for heat of fusion, Tf= (-2328402/(4.186*17982)) + 122.7 =91.7 C.

Oh look my previous post off the top of my head was actually 1.7C lower...


If however you can use a cold water bath to lower the wort to about 150-160, the resulting water/ice mixture should end up around pitching temps ~upper 60s to mid 70s.
Click to expand...

Be careful with using the "S" word, guys;-)
1. You're mixing units. Why are you adding degC to degF when taking into account the Hfus?
2. You'll need more ice than you're taking into account because the final LIQUID volume of 2 gallons. This is ~16.7 lb of h2o (ice). Similar logic applies to the liquid wort case but won't make as much of a difference here.
3. This doesn't really change this outcome in THIS case but the specific heat of solid h2o is 50% that of liquid.
4. The heat capacity of wort will be higher than that of h2o. Not sure what this is Offhand and don't have the time to look it up

You should end up with 60-65F assuming a Cp of 1 for the wort. The actual temp will be higher using an actual wort Cp. Yooper has some good feedback from actual experience here.
 
Yooper said:
I'm glad to hear that it's always worked for you.

Odds, however, are against this working every time. Partly because the wort is still too warm to pitch the yeast. Warm wort in the "danger zone" is more likely to harbor and encourage contaminates. If the wort is cooled to under 90 degrees, and then cold water or ice is added and the wort reaches a temperature in the 60s and yeast is added, then it's likely to be ok.

In my practical experience, 3 gallons of boiling wort + 2 gallons of ice = 100 degree wort. I thought it was a brilliant idea, until I actually tried it. Then I had 5 gallons of 100 degree wort that took hours to cool in an ice bath. It's far easier (and faster) to cool 3 gallons in an ice bath to under 100 degrees, and then add cold water and/or ice to get to 60 degrees or thereabouts and add the yeast.
Click to expand...

*this*
 
I would chill the top-off water in sanitized containers in the fridge overnight before brew day.

Freeze a bunch of water overnight as well to make a bunch of ice to create an ice bath.

Get a wort chiller and use it right at the end of the boil to cool the wort outside of the ice bath. Once the water comes out of the chiller at around room temp, toss the kettle into the ice bath to get the temp down even further. This way you're not using up all of your ice in the beginning of the cooling process.

I've found that wort chillers are great for getting the temp down from boiling to ~110-130F relatively quickly, but getting it from there to pitching temp takes fooooorever. It depends on the temp of your ground water too obviously.
 
I feel the most important thing is to get the beer down below 140 at least, as fast as possible. Doing so will coagulate proteins, reducing chill haze and producing a beer that will likely stay fresher longer. It also prevents the formation of SMM, a DMS precursor. This will also help reduce the possibility of DMS off flavors later on.

There is the possibility that having the wort stay between 140 and 90 will encourage bacterial growth, if your process and environment is clean, the odds of a bacterial infection taking hold is pretty small.

There has been much discussion on no-chill brewing the past several years, and it has a lot of positive acceptance. If done right I think it makes sense for a lot of people, especially those who live in an area where water is scarce, or the water is warm. Otherwise, I don't think it's a good practice to use. At least in my trials I was not happy with the clarity and flavor results when compared to using my CFC.

The best thing, if you have a good supply of cool water, is to bite the bullet and build or buy some form of wort chiller. Barring that, no chill has some benefits and YMMV in it's use. If you want to chill with some ice, I'd probably add it right away and get the wort below 140F and then let it hang out in a sealed container, ala no-chill, until pitching temp is achieved.
 
motobrewer said:
ice is colder than 32F.......

most freezers are set to around -5F. so -5F is probably a good place to start for ice temperature.

you also benefit from the specific heat of fusion. changing phases takes energy. 144 BTU/lb. give or take. provides much more cooling load than the above posters have modeled.
Click to expand...


:drunk: Your kidding right?
 
noobie said:
Anything wrong with pouring 3 gallons of hot wort onto 2 gallons of ice to make a 5 gallon batch?
Click to expand...

THIS^^^^ is how I do it, and will never be disuaded.


Actually I do more like2.5 gallons and 2.5 gallons.

I use the 22 lb bag of ice from Kroger.

I have my kettle marked and forget the exact calculation, but I am chilled to like 61F in no time, crystal clear beer.
 
ShineOn said:
:drunk: Your kidding right?
Click to expand...

Are you?

........

I know that nobody likes to pay for equipment they don't think they need, or waste gratuitous amounts of water chilling their beer, but I would nonetheless recommend investing in a copper coil chiller. To me it's worth every penny, and you can cut down on the cost a bit if you build it yourself.

I live in central Texas where the groundwater is pretty warm, but I generally don't have much of an issue getting my wort down to 90*F pretty quickly with the water on full blast and a bit of stirring using my cheapo copper chiller. Then I just add pre-chilled top-up water, and that usually gets me where I need to be for pitching ales. If I'm doing a lager, I just stick it in the fridge a while after that.
 
I cool in my large kitchen sink using cold RUNNING water - water overflows into the other basin of the sink and down that drain. Running cold water is the best way to defrost a hunk of frozen whatever and it works equally well at cooling my partial boil sized pot of wort. Usually 20 mins and I'm cool enough to transfer to fermenter, top off, and add yeast. Friendly engineers and physicists or thermo dynamic gurus please explain how this works.
 
pricelessbrewing said:
Okay fine.
2 gallons of ice at -5F is 6962 grams. 3 gallons of water at 180F is 11020g.
Combined weight of 17982g
Specific heat of water is 4.186 J/g*C.

Joules released when melting 6962 grams of ice is 2328402 J................more random numbers....
Click to expand...

i can't really follow this as you're mixing units and doing seemingly random things but this seems to be terrible in general.

We need to do 3 things.
1. Heat ice from -10C to 0C
2. Melt Ice
3. Cool water from 200F to Tf (final temp)

Qheatice + Qmeltice = Qcoolwater

[Mi * Hf] + [Mi * Shi * (Tf - Tii)] = [Mw * Shw * (Twi - Tf)]

you seem to like gram units so:

Mi = mass of ice. (2 gallon * 8.33 lb/gallon) = 7,557 grams
Hf = heat of fusion. 80 calorie/gram
Shw = specific heat. Here we assume water, 1 cal/gram*C. Some suggest wort is closer to 1.05.
Shi = specific heat of ice. 0.477 ca/gram*C
Tii = Initial temperature of ice. 10F is -12C
Mw = Mass of water. (3 gallon * 8.33 lb/gallon) = 11,335 gram
Twi = Initial temperature of water. 200F = 93C

Solving for Tf gives about 27C or 80F.

This is just pure water and ice mixing in a perfectly insulated environment. Brewing wort will have a higher specific heat. As hop mass percentage increases so will final temperature.
 
I referenced the wrong temp cell when I used 122F, I also assumed specific heat of water and ice to be the same. Accounting for that correction will put it at about 75f. The rest was fine, I just threw it in a spreadsheet and didn't want to write it all out. It may have seemed random since I didn't show steps and you actually don't need to compute the thermal energies of the melted ice and 200f water separately unless you want to be more precise and assume nom constant specific heat as theyre the same and you can just use a weighted average of temp and mass.

Denstity of ice are different, 2 gallons of ice at 10f is 6954g not 7557g. If however you're measuring the water at tap temp, or even final temp than you're fine as it's 7550g.
Again, density changes significantly with temperature, mass of 3 gallons of water at 200f is 10937g.
Specific heat of fusion is also temperature dependent but not significantly when dealing with non extreme temperatures.


Pissing contest aside, it'll almost get you to pitching temps. I still suggest a cold water bath to about 180 then adding the ice as you should be fine. Or covering and pitching once it cools naturally.

You also still to worry about sanitation of the ice. Imo just get a chiller or go no chill and don't worru about it. I'd rather do that than worry about what bacteria is in the ice.
 

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