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Old 03-27-2012, 07:15 PM   #1
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Default Help modifying an existing Saison recipe

For my next brew I'm hoping to make a clone (or as close as possible) of an Imperial Saison produced by a local brewery. I contacted the brewery directly about ingredients and they were gracious enough to basically tell me everything. Here is their response:

OG 1.065
FG 1.007
5.6 SRM
30 IBU

Pale Malt 2L 76%
Munich 10L 16%
Wheat malt 5%
Carapils 3%

144F 10min
158F 20min
170F 10min

Rakau 12.7AA 60min 0.415oz/5gallon
Rakau 12.7AA 10min 0.484oz/5gallon
Opal 7.9AA 0min 0.668oz/5gallon
Rakau 12.7AA Dry hop 0.634oz/5gallon

Wyeast 3711 French Saison


I am still an extract/specialty grains brewer so I'm trying to adapt this to what I know how to do. I played around with the hopville calculator and came up with this: http://hopville.com/recipe/1254111/s...mperial-saison

I had to change the hop amounts due to the fact that I do partial boils and that the hops are slightly different in AA from rebelbrewer (one of the few places that has Rakau in stock). The OG, IBUs, and percentages in the fermentables look close enough. I could make them exact but I was trying to keep my ingredients to round numbers. The FG is higher than my local brewery's, the color is lighter.

My questions...

1. I know it will make beer, but am I on the right track here (with modifying this to extract)?

2. This seems very light on specialty grains. Do I just use the same percentages they did and call it good? Does it work that way?

3. How do they get the FG lower? The attenuation with that yeast is 77-83%.

4. I looked at other Saison recipes and many of them use plain sugar (to dry out I assume). Is that a necessary component?

Thanks!

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Old 03-27-2012, 07:37 PM   #2
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I'm not too familiar with Rakau or Opal hops, but Saison covers a very broad range stylistically. To achieve a lower FG you need more fermentables in the wort. Unfortunately with extract you have little control over this and a lot of times extract brewers end up finishing around 1.020. You can add Amylase Enzyme to lower the FG, but be careful because there's no going back once you add it. You can add sugar if you like, this could potentionally help lower the FG a few points.

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Old 03-27-2012, 07:41 PM   #3
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Thanks for the response. To be more specific, how do they get the FG lower without raising the OG? Won't adding additional fermentables raise the OG? And with my 2 previous beers, luckily, they've gone below 1.020, but I understand that can happen.

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Old 03-27-2012, 07:44 PM   #4
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1) close, but a lil off. wheat extract isn't 100% and neither is the munich, so you need to overshoot it. also, ditch the carapils addition, its already in the pale extract. try something like
6lbs pale LME
3lbs Munich MLE
1lb wheat LME

3) cuz 3711 will never have that poor of attenuation, it'll get you closer to 90%. those ranges aren't the end all be all

4) not with 3711, it dries out plenty without it. altho since this is extract, you may want to throw some in, say 0.5-1lb

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Old 03-27-2012, 07:46 PM   #5
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Well, you can replace some of your malt extract with sugar to achieve the same OG and get a lower FG. The way all-grain brewers naturally achieve a lower FG is partially by controlling the mash temperature. If you mash the grain at the beta stage only (<150 deg) you get a more fermentable wort that is drier.

There are lots of factors though like wort aeration, yeast viability, pitching rate, etc.

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Old 03-27-2012, 07:50 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcp27 View Post
1) close, but a lil off. wheat extract isn't 100% and neither is the munich, so you need to overshoot it. also, ditch the carapils addition, its already in the pale extract. try something like
6lbs pale LME
3lbs Munich MLE
1lb wheat LME

3) cuz 3711 will never have that poor of attenuation, it'll get you closer to 90%. those ranges aren't the end all be all

4) not with 3711, it dries out plenty without it. altho since this is extract, you may want to throw some in, say 0.5-1lb
how about this? http://hopville.com/recipe/1256551/s...-03-27-version

OG is now 1.072 (higher than the brewery's). No specialty grains at all?
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Old 03-27-2012, 07:52 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbreienrk1 View Post
Well, you can replace some of your malt extract with sugar to achieve the same OG and get a lower FG. The way all-grain brewers naturally achieve a lower FG is partially by controlling the mash temperature. If you mash the grain at the beta stage only (<150 deg) you get a more fermentable wort that is drier.

There are lots of factors though like wort aeration, yeast viability, pitching rate, etc.
gotcha, that makes sense. i assume using a starter would be a must in this situation.
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Old 03-27-2012, 07:55 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wowbeeryum View Post
gotcha, that makes sense. i assume using a starter would be a must in this situation.
I make a starter for any beer when using liquid yeast. If I use dry yeast I rehydrate and then usually pitch from there.
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Old 03-27-2012, 07:58 PM   #9
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look into using belgium candi sugar

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Old 03-27-2012, 08:00 PM   #10
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Quote:
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look into using belgium candi sugar
just curious, why?
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