do NB bittering hops taste aweful?

So I've been using northern brewer hops for bittering in my partial mash brews, based on advice that NB is "clean" and neutral (I.e.: little to no flavor when boiled 60 mins). I'm noticing a background flavor that can only be described as "twang", if that makes sense. It's bringing down otherwise awesome brews, and I'm not sure if this twang is due to the NB bittering, or something else. I'm hoping it's the hops. If its something else, I can think of two possible culprits:1) my use of dry nottingham yeast, or 2) DME used in the partial mash recipes.

Other people that taste the beer don't notice the twang, though I have a sensitive pallet (laugh), and can pick up on the off flavors. Its bugging me and would really like to fix the issue. I have a new PM batch on the go using different hops and yeast, but it'll be another 6 weeks before I can do a taste comparison. I appreciate if someone with experience can advise. I'd like to stick with PM brewing for now, but if it's due to the DME I'll be switching to all-grain PDQ. Thanks I advance.

First of all, you are likely the most critical person to drink your beer. I know that doesn't help, but obviously you aren't producing crap, so take heart.

Second, the most often cited cause of a "twang" is the extract. If you are using only the lightest you can buy and adding it at flameout, it likely doesn't have anything to do with it. But if you are buying a darker extract that could be it. Also, if you are boiling the extract from the beginning, that could very likely be it.

Do you control fermentation temp? If so, how? Ambient air or liquid? Fermentation temp coupled with the wrong yeast choice (not to say yours is wrong, just that each yeast likes a different temp) could cause flavor issues.

Lastly, maybe you just don't like the flavor of the hops. I've personally never used them. On the plus side, experimentation is fun! Find a chart letting you know which hops are citrusy, floral, piney, grassy, etc and choose the flavor you want.

Any hop "flavor" should be boiled off. To see if you like the NB hops make a tea with them, and make sure they don't smell funny.

I use Northern Brewer as bittering hops for most of my beers, and I've never noticed anything such as you have described caused by the hops. I did have a couple of batches which didn't taste quite right recently using harvested yeast, but when I switched to a new batch of yeast, the problem disappeared.

-a.

I think it is the extract or possibly nottingham at higher fermentation temps. Both of those can produce a funny finish or twang.

freisste said:

First of all, you are likely the most critical person to drink your beer. I know that doesn't help, but obviously you aren't producing crap, so take heart.

Second, the most often cited cause of a "twang" is the extract. If you are using only the lightest you can buy and adding it at flameout, it likely doesn't have anything to do with it. But if you are buying a darker extract that could be it. Also, if you are boiling the extract from the beginning, that could very likely be it.

Do you control fermentation temp? If so, how? Ambient air or liquid? Fermentation temp coupled with the wrong yeast choice (not to say yours is wrong, just that each yeast likes a different temp) could cause flavor issues.

Lastly, maybe you just don't like the flavor of the hops. I've personally never used them. On the plus side, experimentation is fun! Find a chart letting you know which hops are citrusy, floral, piney, grassy, etc and choose the flavor you want.

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I'm pretty careful with temperature, fermenting at the bottom end of the recommended range so I think I can rule that one out. Wondering if you called it with the DME boil time though. I do add 3/4 of the extract (muntons light) at flameout, though I always add 1/4 of it (approx 1lb) at the start of the boil. I do this to raise gravity up to or slightly above full volume gravity for a more normal hop utilization. Next batch I'll reserve all of it for flameout and see what happens. Thanks for the tip

Cbaddad said:

I think it is the extract or possibly nottingham at higher fermentation temps. Both of those can produce a funny finish or twang.

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The next batch im conditioning was done with windsor. Still dry yeast, but maybe that'll make a difference. I'm gonna go with wyeast smack packs for the next batch too. People keep telling me the results will be superior to anything dry.

ajf said:

I use Northern Brewer as bittering hops for most of my beers, and I've never noticed anything such as you have described caused by the hops. I did have a couple of batches which didn't taste quite right recently using harvested yeast, but when I switched to a new batch of yeast, the problem disappeared.

-a.

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I've been considering harvesting yeast lately, especially if I step up to liquid yeast... would like to save on costs. Checked out a few youtube videos showing the process... looks involved with all the yeast washing, starters, etc. Is there a simple way to do this? Thanks.

rhys333 said:

The next batch im conditioning was done with windsor. Still dry yeast, but maybe that'll make a difference. I'm gonna go with wyeast smack packs for the next batch too. People keep telling me the results will be superior to anything dry.

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If you use a single smack pack, be aware that, without a starter that's not enough cells.

Whoever told you that liquid yeast is somehow inherently superior to dry is misinformed. Liquid certainly provides a greater selection to be more style-specific. Dry has a better shelf life, more cells in a packet and is easier to use. With the right pitch temp, pitch rate and fermentation temp profile either dry or liquid can produce excellent results.

BigFloyd said:

If you use a single smack pack, be aware that, without a starter that's not enough cells.

Whoever told you that liquid yeast is somehow inherently superior to dry is misinformed. Liquid certainly provides a greater selection to be more style-specific. Dry has a better shelf life, more cells in a packet and is easier to use. With the right pitch temp, pitch rate and fermentation temp profile either dry or liquid can produce excellent results.

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Glad to hear, thanks for clarifying that. Are there any options other than windsor, nottingham, and coopers? Its all my lhbs seems to carry in dry.

http://www.farmhousebrewingsupply.com/
It doesn't matter where you live.

rhys333 said:

Glad to hear, thanks for clarifying that. Are there any options other than windsor, nottingham, and coopers? Its all my lhbs seems to carry in dry.

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Sure. Lots of folks use US-05 (Chico strain, same as WLP001 liquid), S-04 (Whitbread) and BRY-97 (West Coast Ale). There's also a whole new line of Mangrove Jack's dry yeast which I haven't had the chance to try yet. Here's a list of the dry yeast my LHBS carries - https://www.tylersbrewing.com/brewing-ingredients/yeast/dry

Windsor - goes fast and vigorous, gets done quickly, tends to leave a higher FG (and more residual sweetness) which is fine for certain styles, but not for others.

Nottingham - you can get some excellent (crisp and clean) results with this strain so long as you pitch cold and keep the ferment cold (55-58*F beer temp) for the first 4-6 days then let it come up into the mid-60's to finish. Problems arise when this yeast is pitched into warm wort and/or allowed to ferment above 68*F. Brewers who lack proper temp control can have a tough time getting good results with this one.

rhys333 said:

I've been considering harvesting yeast lately, especially if I step up to liquid yeast... would like to save on costs. Checked out a few youtube videos showing the process... looks involved with all the yeast washing, starters, etc. Is there a simple way to do this? Thanks.

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If you can brew and bottle beer, making a starter, and harvesting yeast is simple. It's like riding a bicycle. Once you have got used to the process, it's simple, but it takes a bit of getting used to. Try following the instructions in https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yeast-washing-illustrated-41768/ to practice. After a few times you will see how easy it is.

As for making starters, see http://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/yeast-propagation-and-maintenance-principles-and-practices for some excellent information. Again, it's simple once you have done a few.

As BigFloyd said, liquid yeasts are not superior to dry, there are just more varieties of them. If I am making an American Pale Ale, I use US-05 rather than WLP001 or WY 1056, because it's cheaper, and I cannot detect any difference between them.

-a.

BigFloyd said:

Sure. Lots of folks use US-05 (Chico strain, same as WLP001 liquid), S-04 (Whitbread) and BRY-97 (West Coast Ale). There's also a whole new line of Mangrove Jack's dry yeast which I haven't had the chance to try yet. Here's a list of the dry yeast my LHBS carries - https://www.tylersbrewing.com/brewing-ingredients/yeast/dry

Windsor - goes fast and vigorous, gets done quickly, tends to leave a higher FG (and more residual sweetness) which is fine for certain styles, but not for others.

Nottingham - you can get some excellent (crisp and clean) results with this strain so long as you pitch cold and keep the ferment cold (55-58*F beer temp) for the first 4-6 days then let it come up into the mid-60's to finish. Problems arise when this yeast is pitched into warm wort and/or allowed to ferment above 68*F. Brewers who lack proper temp control can have a tough time getting good results with this one.

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Awesome, thanks for the great info. My lhbs carries windsor and nottingham in dry, but thats it. I'll have to give em heck next time I'm there. On a side note I'm brewing some moose drool brown ale right now using windsor. There's 1 lb of crystal 60 in there and as its a couple points short of the estimated FG. Expecting it to be a little on the sweet side. Oh well, part of the learning process.

ajf said:

If you can brew and bottle beer, making a starter, and harvesting yeast is simple. It's like riding a bicycle. Once you have got used to the process, it's simple, but it takes a bit of getting used to. Try following the instructions in https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yeast-washing-illustrated-41768/ to practice. After a few times you will see how easy it is.

As for making starters, see http://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/yeast-propagation-and-maintenance-principles-and-practices for some excellent information. Again, it's simple once you have done a few.

As BigFloyd said, liquid yeasts are not superior to dry, there are just more varieties of them. If I am making an American Pale Ale, I use US-05 rather than WLP001 or WY 1056, because it's cheaper, and I cannot detect any difference between them.

-a.

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Thanks for the links. It's a little intimidating for me at this point, but I really want to try harvesting soon. I'm brewing my first batch of ESB next week and I think i'll give it a shot after that.

I would go with safale 05. That is a great yeast. Although harvesting yeast is fun to do, I would first get your taste situation figured out. At $5 max per packet, operating with fresh yeast is not all that expensive. Also, harvesting from high gravity beers or super hoppy beers is not usually advised due to the quality of yeast collected.

Also, I am not sure if you are doing so at the time, but many people who brew with extract add about 2/3 of their extract the last 15 minutes of the boil and get better results. This article by BYO has a lot of value for extract brewing IMO

http://byo.com/extract-brewing/item/10-10-steps-to-better-extract-brewing

Cbaddad said:

I would go with safale 05. That is a great yeast. Although harvesting yeast is fun to do, I would first get your taste situation figured out. At $5 max per packet, operating with fresh yeast is not all that expensive. Also, harvesting from high gravity beers or super hoppy beers is not usually advised due to the quality of yeast collected.

Also, I am not sure if you are doing so at the time, but many people who brew with extract add about 2/3 of their extract the last 15 minutes of the boil and get better results. This article by BYO has a lot of value for extract brewing IMO

http://byo.com/extract-brewing/item/10-10-steps-to-better-extract-brewing

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I've been adding 1/4 DME at 60 mins and 3/4 at flameout, though as mentioned earlier in the thread I'm getting twangy undertones in the finished beer. I'm going to try adding all of it at flameout as freisste suggests.

Your suggestion to experiment with a few yeast strains before harvesting sounds like a good plan, and luckily I just found a lhbs that carries a wide range of dry fermentis and other brands for $5-6 ea. Googled a bit on this stuff... I'm reading that notty is similar to US05, while windsor is like US04. US05 takes longer to ferment than notty, but can have a crisper finish and is less sensitive to temp. US04 forms a dense yeast cake helping improve beer clarity, can be fruity and attenuates slightly lower similar to windsor. Am I getting this right or did I just mix everything up?

Sounds good. 05 is just a great basic yeast and I would ply with that if you are doing any sort of pale ales etc... 04 is a decent yeast for anything English based.

Good luck.

rhys333 said:

I've been adding 1/4 DME at 60 mins and 3/4 at flameout, though as mentioned earlier in the thread I'm getting twangy undertones in the finished beer. I'm going to try adding all of it at flameout as freisste suggests.

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You need to have some malt present during the boil for proper hop utilization. Your current practice of 1/4 at 60 and the rest at flameout is fine. I'd not change that at all.

What are you using for brew water?

BigFloyd said:

You need to have some malt present during the boil for proper hop utilization. Your current practice of 1/4 at 60 and the rest at flameout is fine. I'd not change that at all.

What are you using for brew water?

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I'm using a combination of bottled spring water (not distilled or RO - heard minerals are needed) and filtered/boiled tap water. I brew to 6 gals, using 5 gal jug of the spring water, and making up the difference with the tap water.

As far as malt in the boil, I do partial mash, maxing out my 5 gal kettle with about 5 to 6 lbs grain (4.5 lb 2 row + specialty grain). Am I okay with just this or do I still need the small amount DME as well? I really want to isolate out where this twang is coming from, and would like to know if its the DME.

Cbaddad said:

Sounds good. 05 is just a great basic yeast and I would ply with that if you are doing any sort of pale ales etc... 04 is a decent yeast for anything English based.

Good luck.

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I'll give the US05 a shot in my next batch then. Will be doing a modofied version of an english ESB that includes a small amout of chocolate malt... sounded interesting. I'm tweaking the recipe for 2 row instead of maris otter and combining US hops with EKG, so its a bit of an ESB/APA mish-mash I suppose.

rhys333 said:

As far as malt in the boil, I do partial mash, maxing out my 5 gal kettle with about 5 to 6 lbs grain (4.5 lb 2 row + specialty grain). Am I okay with just this or do I still need the small amount DME as well? I really want to isolate out where this twang is coming from, and would like to know if its the DME.

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I'll have to go back to my original post, but I never meant to suggest you add NO extract from the beginning - only that you should try adding a small amount compared to what you add at flameout. I have always been under the impression that some sugar was required for hop utilization. (I have also heard more recently of people experimenting by boiling hops in plain water and adding ALL of the extract at flameout, apparently with good results. No idea, never tried it.)

Regardless, if you do a partial mash, there is enough sugar from the mash that you will not need to add any more for the boil. You can add all the extract at the end.

rhys333 said:

I'm using a combination of bottled spring water (not distilled or RO - heard minerals are needed) and filtered/boiled tap water. I brew to 6 gals, using 5 gal jug of the spring water, and making up the difference with the tap water.

As far as malt in the boil, I do partial mash, maxing out my 5 gal kettle with about 5 to 6 lbs grain (4.5 lb 2 row + specialty grain). Am I okay with just this or do I still need the small amount DME as well? I really want to isolate out where this twang is coming from, and would like to know if its the DME.

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Since you're doing PM, there's no need to add DME at the start of the boil. You're good with what you've got in there already.

The top off with filtered/boiled tap water is fine so long as you are confident that it doesn't contain any chloramine (which won't boil off like chlorine will).

BigFloyd said:

Since you're doing PM, there's no need to add DME at the start of the boil. You're good with what you've got in there already.

The top off with filtered/boiled tap water is fine so long as you are confident that it doesn't contain any chloramine (which won't boil off like chlorine will).

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My local water does contain chloramine, though so far I've been overlooking this. I've heard that campden tablets will make it drop out, though I'm leary about adding more chemicals to my beer. Is the choramine a major issue and should I just go 100% spring water? Wondering what you and others do for water...

It's a major issue if you taste it. It tastes like band aides or so I've heard.

I use ascorbic acid (vitamin C) rather than campden tablets to neutralize it because it is in my water as well. It's a "non-chemical" alternative to campden, depending on what your definition of chemical is.

Thanks for the advice all. I'll look into the ascorbic acid and campden. Might just do this next batch with 100% spring water, if only to eliminate chloramine from the equation. Hsppy new year!