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Old 06-28-2010, 06:51 AM   #1
McFugga
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Default Confused on Good Extract Procedure

Just started Brewing and trying to read up and get as much information as I can but there are a couple of things i can't seem to find answers on.

I Followed this link http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/DMS about DMS and it says to reduce DMS you must do a full boil of wort. I think this refers more to AG batches but what about extract? I have read that some people add extract at near the end of their boil, about 20 Min or so, to reduce the extract "twang." This seems somewhat contradictory.

I have also read that doing a full boil enhances your beer, and that you should do as close to a full boil as you can Why? What is the science behind it? I only have a 4 Gallon pot so my boil size is only around 3.5 Gallons. With my last batch (and first, well at least my first beer) I start off with 3.5 Gallons and added boiling water from another pot during the boil to compensate for evaporation. Is there a reason not to do that? Does it even help? I don't have the experience to test it out yet and am wondering if someone else has.

And then finally what is all this talk about not wanting to aerate the wort? I can understand not wanting to expose oxygen to a finished beer, but isn't oxygen needed in the beginning for yeast to multiply? This is another thing where I keep finding contradictory advice, and my experience with mead was to always shake up the carboy in the beginning



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Old 06-28-2010, 07:04 AM   #2
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Lots of questions...

A partial boil is ok, but you need to compensate for the hop utilization - less boil volume means that the hops aren't utilized as efficiently - It has something to do with diffusion, but i'm no expert - So you'll need more hops if you do a partial boil. A lot of people recommend a late extract addition. The extract only really needs about 15 minutes of boiling, and, again, I'm not sure of the science behind it, but supposedly adding it later helps to avoid some issues.

In an extract brew, I wouldn't worry about DMS, unless you're brewing with a lot of pilsner extract. I don't think a full boil really matters there, but most recommend a 90 minute boil for recipes involving a lot of pilsner malt.

Aeration is good pre-fermentation (and post-boil - there are arguments whether hot side aeration pre-boil is a problem, but i wouldn't worry much about it) but after the beer is fermenting, it should be handled carefully to so as not to introduce oxygen, which can affect long-term stability and flavor (tastes like a refilled water bottle after a couple of days).

Most of all RDWHAHB!



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Old 06-28-2010, 07:14 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by McFugga View Post
And then finally what is all this talk about not wanting to aerate the wort?
I'll just take this one. Haven't really been immersed in extract brewing.

You don't want to aerate the beer, or wort, at any time that it's not going to be helpful. The only time it's helpful is when yeast are budding, growing, and multiplying. Because staling reactions happen on the order of twice as fast per every 10ºC (log scale), bad things happen more readily at high temperatures, leading to the insidious boogeyman known as "hot side aeration." As soon as the wort is boiled, though, the O2 gets driven out. Homebrew wort spends very little time in the hot-but-not-boiling space, so HSA is never a worry.

It might be if you're mass-producing thousands of barrels at a time of flavorless diet barley soda.
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Old 06-28-2010, 07:16 AM   #4
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flavorless diet barley soda.
I like this.
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Old 06-28-2010, 07:31 AM   #5
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Thanks for the quick reply.

I was aware that decreasing boil size decreases hop utilization, and luckily I have beersmith to help me figure out compensation. But, I have also read that doing a late extract addition will increase my hop utilization, I think I read somewhere by up to 25%. Not to sure how to compensate for that though. Trial and error probably. I was more wondering if a full boil some how affected the way extract dissolved into wort.

I was already thinking that DMS was more of an AG and partial mash issue. Thank you for confirming that, and thanks for the heads up on pilsners.

I was pretty sure that pre-fermetation aeration was a good thing but seemed to kept finding advice to avoid it when I started researching beer, never ran into it when researching mead. Maybe I was just misreading it and it was talking about the pre-boil aeration, which shouldn't be a problem for me if I am exctract.

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Old 06-28-2010, 03:03 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by McFugga View Post
I was aware that decreasing boil size decreases hop utilization, and luckily I have beersmith to help me figure out compensation. But, I have also read that doing a late extract addition will increase my hop utilization, I think I read somewhere by up to 25%. Not to sure how to compensate for that though. Trial and error probably. I was more wondering if a full boil some how affected the way extract dissolved into wort.
Beersmith has an option to choose extract as a late addition so no need for the trial and error on the hop utilization. Another reason for the late add is that the full boils can cause your wort to be darker than intended due to excess malliard reactions.
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Old 06-28-2010, 05:51 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McFugga View Post
I Followed this link http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/DMS about DMS and it says to reduce DMS you must do a full boil of wort. I think this refers more to AG batches but what about extract? I have read that some people add extract at near the end of their boil, about 20 Min or so, to reduce the extract "twang." This seems somewhat contradictory.
Extract brewers need not worry about DMS. The extract manufacturer has already boiled the wort before concentrating it into extract. The process of boiling drives off DMS precursors.

DMS is really only a problem in pale beers brewed with less-modified pale malts, like Pils. It's still a good idea to conduct as aggressive a boil as possible, even with extract beers, to ensure good hops utilization.

Adding extract late helps reduce excessive darkening of the wort. AFAIK, it does not reduce twang, as twang is the result of age, not time in the kettle. Complex reactions occur in the malt sugars during the boil which contribute to darkening the final color excessively.

Quote:
I have also read that doing a full boil enhances your beer, and that you should do as close to a full boil as you can Why? What is the science behind it? I only have a 4 Gallon pot so my boil size is only around 3.5 Gallons. With my last batch (and first, well at least my first beer) I start off with 3.5 Gallons and added boiling water from another pot during the boil to compensate for evaporation. Is there a reason not to do that? Does it even help? I don't have the experience to test it out yet and am wondering if someone else has.
Full boil - i.e., boiling the full desired volume plus an amount calculated to boil off during the boil - reduces color concentration and provides easily calculable hops utilization. The greater the sugar concentration of the wort, the lower the utilization percentage - IOW, the more hops you need to use to arrive at a desired bitterness.

I do not recommend adding liquor from another vessel during the boil of the main wort. Any interruption of the boil interferes with utilization and break formation. Boil what you can and top it off in the fermenter.

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And then finally what is all this talk about not wanting to aerate the wort? I can understand not wanting to expose oxygen to a finished beer, but isn't oxygen needed in the beginning for yeast to multiply? This is another thing where I keep finding contradictory advice, and my experience with mead was to always shake up the carboy in the beginning
Aeration - dissolving oxygen in the cooled wort - is important for yeast metabolism. Aeration is not as important when using active, healthy yeast, such as from a starter. It is also not as important when using dry yeast, because modern dry yeasts are manufactured with carefully-calculated amounts of necessary nutrients in those little grains.

You should avoid excessive aeration of hot wort and after the yeast is pitched. Both lessen the shelf stability of the finished beer.

Don't worry too much about aeration of hot wort. It's damn near impossible to form staling precursors in a home brewery through hot-side aeration.

Do, however, take all the care you can to keep air out of the finished beer, i.e., at racking or bottling time.

Good luck, and welcome to the obsession...er...hobby!

Bob
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Old 06-28-2010, 07:54 PM   #8
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Adding extract late helps reduce excessive darkening of the wort. AFAIK, it does not reduce twang, as twang is the result of age, not time in the kettle. Complex reactions occur in the malt sugars during the boil which contribute to darkening the final color excessively.
I've heard a bit about the extract late method (about to try it on my next batch) on the Basic Brewing podcast, and Chris Colby from BYO advocating it. I found a good reference for this method (link) as well as a description below

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bader
The advantages to this method are that you can:

1) Make a beer with a lighter color.
2) Make a beer with higher levels of hop bitterness.
3) Minimize the carmelization of the malt extract sugars, giving you more appropriate flavors. Some brewers call this carmelization "malt extract taste"
Also...

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I do not recommend adding liquor from another vessel during the boil of the main wort.
I just learned this myself, so just in case, "liquor" is another term for the hot water used for brewing, not alcohol!
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:29 PM   #9
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I just learned this myself, so just in case, "liquor" is another term for the hot water used for brewing, not alcohol!
Well, it doesn't have to be hot, which is why we have to specify that this is our "Hot Liquor Tank" or HLT. Also, liquor is water that is specifically prepped to be a beer ingredient, in that it will almost always be dechlorinated and sometimes purified or have minerals added.
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:36 PM   #10
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Good answer. "Liquor" is water that goes into beer. "Water" is only used for cleaning.

Bob



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