Ss Brewing Technologies Giveaway!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Beginners Beer Brewing Forum > conditioning == conditioning?
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 04-30-2014, 05:37 PM   #11
gregfreemyer
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 118
Liked 9 Times on 9 Posts
Likes Given: 3

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by andy6026 View Post
He's made 89 posts here and still thinks it's standard to rack to secondary?
I've seen lots of posts here about skipping the carboy for secondary., but:

- I took a class at the LHBS and they said to use one.
- The first kit I bought (Brewer's Best) said to use one.
- My good friend has been brewing for a decade or so and he uses one.
- I started with a fermentation bucket and a carboy, so I could brew more often if I used both vessels.
- oxygen seepage through the bucket during the first couple days isn't a big deal. After that, I don't know if oxygen permeation of the bucket is an issue. Some articles say it is.

Racking is not much extra work and I like being able to see the beer by just unwrapping the towel I keep around the carboy. (The primary ferment is pretty ugly, so I don't tend to look at it much.

I now have a couple bottling buckets I could use as a fermenter so the carboy is optional, but I still use it.

--
Nobody has really answered my initial question. Is conditioning in a bucket/carboy the exact same conditioning that happens in the bottle?

Thus if I want to condition a specific recipe 10 weeks because I've found it tastes best at that point:

Can I condition partially in primary, partially (or none) in secondary, and partially in the bottle. All that matters is it adds up to 10 weeks of conditioning?

And of course I need the beer in the bottle long enough to carb.

I do get the point of not racking the beer off the yeast cake until FG is achieved, but I assume that is before conditioning starts so my 10 weeks would start when the FG has been stable for 3 days.
__________________
gregfreemyer is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-30-2014, 05:59 PM   #12
gregfreemyer
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 118
Liked 9 Times on 9 Posts
Likes Given: 3

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigFloyd View Post
Commercial brewers do that for two main reasons. The first is to keep their production moving along. The second is called yeast autolysis. In the large stainless conical fermenters they use, the yeast flocs out and settles to the bottom in the cone. There's a lot of weight (from the large volume of beer) pressing down on that yeast which can cause the cells to rupture leading to some yucky off-flavors.
Since you seem to know the pro way. I did a micro-brewery tour a few weeks ago. They said they typically keep the beer in the conical for 3 weeks, then rack to a brite tank, and then keg / bottle from there.

Is this roughly what they are doing timeline wise:

- day one - trub settles and yeast population multiplies
- end of day one - pull the trub off the bottom (why?)
- next several days primary fermentation takes place
- at end of primary, pull the yeast cake and wash it for re-use
- the rest of the 3 weeks is for clean-up / conditioning / clarifying
- move to brite tank to force carb for 24-48 hours
- package

Do they only do 2 two bottom pulls from the fermenter? If they do more, why?

Thanks
__________________
gregfreemyer is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-30-2014, 06:04 PM   #13
Trox
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Trox's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana
Posts: 511
Liked 114 Times on 71 Posts
Likes Given: 43

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregfreemyer View Post
I've seen lots of posts here about skipping the carboy for secondary., but:

- I took a class at the LHBS and they said to use one.
- The first kit I bought (Brewer's Best) said to use one.
- My good friend has been brewing for a decade or so and he uses one.
- I started with a fermentation bucket and a carboy, so I could brew more often if I used both vessels.
- oxygen seepage through the bucket during the first couple days isn't a big deal. After that, I don't know if oxygen permeation of the bucket is an issue. Some articles say it is.
1. My LHBS has told me you have to have 2 burners to brew all grain.

2. Kits also say to bottle after 3-7 days (depending on the kit) never telling you to check for stable FG; also they never mention anything about starters.

3. Up until a few years ago (I believe) it was a common misconception that homebrewers had to be concerned with autolysis when with the scale we brew on it really isn't an issue, unless you plan on bulk aging your beer for months.

4. One of the few viable reasons on why to use a secondary; of course can always buy a couple more buckets and not worry about it.

5. Oxygen seepage isn't a factor unless you are leaving it in the bucket for months.

If racking to a secondary gives you peace of mind then continue doing so, but in the end it really isn't necessrary unless you need to free up your primary or plan on bulk aging.
__________________
Trox is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-30-2014, 06:24 PM   #14
unionrdr
Wannabe author
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
unionrdr's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Sheffield, Ohio
Posts: 29,143
Liked 2024 Times on 1773 Posts
Likes Given: 1504

Default

Of course you can continue to use a secondary if you want to. But if it's an average gravity beer & you're not adding fruit,oaking,etc then you really don't have to...but you can. And it seems to me it's in the LHBS's best interests for you to use a secondary,so he can sell you one. I also must agree that most instructions are simplistic for a reason. Not to mention a bit behind the times in some cases. The information one finds on here can easily be considered cutting edge. We're always experimenting to push the envelope around here. So information between us & them can seem conflicting.

__________________
Everything works if ya let it-Roady(meatloaf)
NEW, REVISED EDITION of book one of Time Lords 2034 series now on Amazon Kindle! http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NTA0L6G
unionrdr is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-30-2014, 06:29 PM   #15
govner1
Raconteur
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
govner1's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 1,886
Liked 214 Times on 180 Posts
Likes Given: 8

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregfreemyer View Post
I've seen lots of posts here about skipping the carboy for secondary., but:



- I took a class at the LHBS and they said to use one.

- The first kit I bought (Brewer's Best) said to use one.

- My good friend has been brewing for a decade or so and he uses one.

- I started with a fermentation bucket and a carboy, so I could brew more often if I used both vessels.

- oxygen seepage through the bucket during the first couple days isn't a big deal. After that, I don't know if oxygen permeation of the bucket is an issue. Some articles say it is.



Racking is not much extra work and I like being able to see the beer by just unwrapping the towel I keep around the carboy. (The primary ferment is pretty ugly, so I don't tend to look at it much.



I now have a couple bottling buckets I could use as a fermenter so the carboy is optional, but I still use it.



--

Nobody has really answered my initial question. Is conditioning in a bucket/carboy the exact same conditioning that happens in the bottle?



Thus if I want to condition a specific recipe 10 weeks because I've found it tastes best at that point:



Can I condition partially in primary, partially (or none) in secondary, and partially in the bottle. All that matters is it adds up to 10 weeks of conditioning?



And of course I need the beer in the bottle long enough to carb.



I do get the point of not racking the beer off the yeast cake until FG is achieved, but I assume that is before conditioning starts so my 10 weeks would start when the FG has been stable for 3 days.

To answer your question re conditioning. Conditioning in a bottle or keg refers to adding a priming solution to your beer once fermentation is completed to deactivate the yeast that is still in solution. This yeast will the create CO2 that will carbonate your beer. In bottles the cap prevents the CO2 from escaping & once you chill it the gas dissolves into the beer. The same happens in a keg. You purge O2 from the keg w/ CO2 & seal it w/ CO2 so the carbonation doesn't escape. Again, chill for a couple of days to allow the CO2 to be absorbed (dissolved). Remember the solubility of a gas is inversely proportional to the temp.
Next, leaving the fermenting wort on the yeast until fermentation is complete is important because after active fermentation stops the yeast does cleanup of undesirable compounds in your beer that can cause off flavors. It also allows for more of the yeast to settle out of solution.
I do a secondary (brite tank) on my beers because I'm patient & think I get a clearer beer.



Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
__________________
govner1 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-30-2014, 06:31 PM   #16
WileECoyote
Naked Brew !
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
WileECoyote's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Mohave Valley, Az
Posts: 1,446
Liked 152 Times on 123 Posts
Likes Given: 229

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregfreemyer View Post
For those of us that bottle the standard process is:

Ferment in bucket
Condition in carboy
Carb/Condition in bottles

I have a recipe which I found was great with 1 week - bucket, 2 weeks - carboy, 8 weeks - bottle

I left it in the fermenting bucket 2 weeks and the carboy 3 weeks this time. Does that imply it has already done 4 weeks of conditioning, so 4 more in the bottle will be the equivalent of my desired process?

Also I read that you can put the bottles at 75 degrees to carbonate faster. Does that also accelerate conditioning?

Thanks
Simple answer to both your questions is YES !

Cheers
__________________

WileECoyote
Naked Brew

Bartender Ill have what the gentleman on the floor is drinking.

I have spent more $ on brewing equipment than my truck cost!

Green beer sucks, let it age/condition/finish and become great before drinking it. WileECoyote

Good/Great beer takes time! if you want a quick beer go to the store or bar!

Things come and go. Good beer will live on for ever ! WileECoyote

WileECoyote is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-30-2014, 06:49 PM   #17
plankbr
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 342
Liked 47 Times on 30 Posts
Likes Given: 32

Default

No they are not the same:


Co2 escapes in primary/secondary and it's trapped in the bottling state. Bottle conditioning is adding more sugar and kickstarting a mini-fermentation in a completely sealed environment.

__________________

Fermenting: Fezziwig's Fizz, Bee Stinger IIPA
Bottled: Mosaic APA II, Dead Ringer IPA, Oliver's Oil (American Stout), Wait On the Plank Pale Ale, Fresh Squeezed IPA II, Centennial Blonde. Galaxy IIPA, Black IPA, Doubly Fresh Squeezed IPA, Centennial Blonde, RIS, American Amber
http://phish.servebeer.com

plankbr is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-30-2014, 08:44 PM   #18
BigFloyd
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
BigFloyd's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Tyler, Texas
Posts: 4,806
Liked 626 Times on 548 Posts
Likes Given: 575

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregfreemyer View Post
I read a blog post about conicals for home brewers. The writer didn't have one and was basically argueing they were a waste of money except for cosmetics.

A few of the home brew commenters said their beer cleared up significantly faster in a conical. I took this to be because they would have a reduced surface area on the top of the yeast cake and that they could pull the trub / yeast cake as the ferment progressed.

Any logic to any of that?
I've not heard that before and it doesn't really make much sense when you think about the factors involved. Who knows? It may be that they feel the need to justify to themselves all that $$ they spent on the fancy fermenter. I'm happy with my cheapo 6.5 gallon buckets.

I go to stable FG (normally 8-10 days since I follow pitch rates and aerate/oxygenate well) plus 3-4 days for cleanup, then crash a week at 35*F. My beers are clear enough that I most often don't even bother adding gelatin at kegging.
__________________
Good Temp Control -----> Happy Yeast ------> Tasty Brew
BigFloyd is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What's the difference? Fermenter conditioning/bottle conditioning? mbtmm Fermentation & Yeast 4 04-08-2014 11:55 AM
Difference between bulk conditioning and botlle conditioning beerbeerbeer123 General Beer Discussion 9 03-02-2013 02:33 AM
Ale - Warm or cold conditioning best? Full or no psi while conditioning? ipso General Techniques 8 09-08-2012 02:34 AM
cold-conditioning vs warm conditioning - what is the science? twd000 General Beer Discussion 0 07-13-2012 11:12 PM
Bottle Conditioning vs Carboy Conditioning. What's the difference? BrewOnBoard Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 7 12-13-2008 06:21 AM