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-   -   Buttery/Cabbage'y (http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/buttery-cabbagey-362219/)

JeffoC6 10-19-2012 07:41 PM

Buttery/Cabbage'y
 
I realize that buttered popcorn and cooked vegetables (cabbage) is a common off flavor in homebrewing. Everything I've read on it basically says it's due to yeast issues or sanitation.

After spending months getting my tannin issues under control (I think I finally figured it out), I'm now having issues with a buttery/slick/cabbage'y aftertaste in my brews.

I just opened my pumpkin ale which I brewed back in early August. It's actually REALLY good, save for the aftertaste of cabbage/butter that I'm getting.

I'm really quite OCD when it comes to sanitation, so I'm wondering what else I could be doing wrong?

I brew 1 gallon batches, I don't use starters, and I usually pitch a little more yeast than Mr. Malty calls for (to be safe). I also primary only for 3 weeks minimum. I do not cold crash, and I bottle condition for 3 weeks minimum for medium gravity beers.

I have loads of details about my Pumpkin ale, so I'd be happy to share them and of course, offer any info on the processes I used, so please, help a brother out.

I should note that I experienced this same off flavor on one of the Bell's Two Hearted ale clones that I did back in July.

I feel like I've yet to make a beer that I've said "wow" too...and I've been brewing since January. I'm really starting to get discouraged, as for awhile it was overcarbonation, and then it was tannin extracting from too thin a mash, and now it's off flavors of cabbage and butter.

Please help :(

billl 10-19-2012 07:52 PM

Well, the cabbage taste is DMS. If you ruled out infection, it is likely a boil/cooling issue. You want to have a good rolling boil going with the lid off. If you are having issues, a 90 minute boil can often help vs a 60. You also need to cool as quickly as possible as DMS keeps forming in hot wort.

Butter = Diacetyl. All yeast produce it, but some more than others. Diacetyl is produced early in fermentation. If you are getting a lot of it with strains that aren't known issues, then it usually because of a slow fermentation start from under-pitching or under-aerating or generally unhealthy yeast.

manoaction 10-19-2012 07:53 PM

Cooked vegetables in your beer is a fault called DMS. How fast are you cooling your wort? What's your yeast pitch rate and what temp are you fermenting at?

JeffoC6 10-19-2012 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billl (Post 4514623)
Well, the cabbage taste is DMS. If you ruled out infection, it is likely a boil/cooling issue. You want to have a good rolling boil going with the lid off. If you are having issues, a 90 minute boil can often help vs a 60. You also need to cool as quickly as possible as DMS keeps forming in hot wort.

Butter = Diacetyl. All yeast produce it, but some more than others. Diacetyl is produced early in fermentation. If you are getting a lot of it with strains that aren't known issues, then it usually because of a slow fermentation start from under-pitching or under-aerating or generally unhealthy yeast.

To touch on your points:

I really don't think it's infection. My boil (roughly 1.75 gallons of wort) is achieved pretty quickly and definitely is a rolling boil. I always boil for 60 minutes. My cooling process takes at MOST, 15 minutes in an ice bath.

For this pumpkin ale recipe I used the following:
Wyeast London ESB Ale 1968- Per Mr. Malty- Pitch 1.3 packets. Only used 1.

And for the two hearted ale clone i made:
Wyeast American Ale II 1272- Per MrMalty, pitch 0.6 packets. Pitched about 3/4 of the packet.

These 2 beers are really the only beers I have noticed this off flavor in so far. If it's not the boil or the cooling process, could the pumpkin ale off flavor (1.079 SG) be coming from the fact that I under pitched?

Why would the two hearted ale produce this off flavor if I basically pitched MORE than Mr. Malty called for?

shawnbou 10-19-2012 07:58 PM

While "buttery" is a word I hear in conjunction with diacetyl (a byproduct of stressed/underpitched yeast), I think your issue is probably dimethyl sulfide or DMS, usually said to lend a "cooked cabbage" or "cooked corn" off-flavor.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/DMS

DMS usually comes from using a lot of underkilned malt like Pilsner malt and not boiling long enough.

Are you brewing with all grain? If so, any wort you make with a lot of Pilsner malt should be boiled for at least 90 minutes to eliminate DMS precursors and then chilled as quickly as possible. If you're brewing with extract, it should already be pre-boiled, so we may have to look elsewhere for your solution.

JeffoC6 10-19-2012 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manoaction (Post 4514626)
Cooked vegetables in your beer is a fault called DMS. How fast are you cooling your wort? What's your yeast pitch rate and what temp are you fermenting at?

I boil my wort for 60 minutes.
I cool within 15 minutes (I do 1 gallon batches)
I use Mr Malty to determine my pitch rate, and round up (example, 0.2 packets of US-05 for a 1-gallon batch, I use 0.5 packets).
I have a fermentation chamber and keep my ales at/around 64-65 degrees.

JeffoC6 10-19-2012 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawnbou (Post 4514641)
While "buttery" is a word I hear in conjunction with diacetyl (a byproduct of stressed/underpitched yeast), I think your issue is probably dimethyl sulfide or DMS, usually said to lend a "cooked cabbage" or "cooked corn" off-flavor.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/DMS

DMS usually comes from using a lot of underkilned malt like Pilsner malt and not boiling long enough.

Are you brewing with all grain? If so, any wort you make with a lot of Pilsner malt should be boiled for at least 90 minutes to eliminate DMS precursors and then chilled as quickly as possible. If you're brewing with extract, it should already be pre-boiled, so we may have to look elsewhere for your solution.

Yes, I'm doing AG. Here is my recipe for the pumpkin ale I brewed and the two hearted ale:

Pumpkin Ale
Malts and Fermentables (based off of 70% efficiency)
Pale 2-Row- 3.15 lb
Caramel/Crystal 60L- 0.32 lb
Special B- 0.08 lb
Dark Wheat- 0.15 lb
*Organic Pumpkin Roasted 1 hr @ 350 and cooled- 0.24 lb

*Add roasted pumpkin as mash water is nearing strike temp. When strike temp is achieved, add grains and mash in.

Hops:
Northern Brewer- 0.26 oz @ FWH
Fuggles- 0.12 oz @ 20 min.
Fuggles- 0.12 oz @ 10 min.

Misc:
1.88 oz Canned Pumpkin Pie Mix @ 30 min.
1/5 Whirlfloc tablet @ 15 min.
0.19 tablespoons of Pumpkin Pie Spice @ 5 min.
0.12 tablespoons of Pumpkin Pie Spice @ 1 min.
2 dashes of ground Nutmeg @ 1 min.
*0.25 lb Brown Sugar @ throughout the boil
Add 1/2 teaspoon of Vanilla extract after FG is reached
Add 1 teaspoon of Pumpkin Pie spice to a little water and boil. After cooled, slowly add a little at a time to primary and stir in gently until desired spice is reached (after FG is reached)
Add 1 oz of lactose to a bit of water and boil. After cooled, slowly to the primary and stir gently (after FG is reached).

*Brown sugar to be added throughout the 60 min. boil.

Yeast:
Wyeast London ESB Ale 1968- Per Mr. Malty- Pitch 1.3 packets. Only used 1.

Target SG (not including the points for roasted pumpkin and brown sugar): 1.064
My SG: 72 * 1.078 = 1.079
Target FG: 1.020
My FG: 1.022

Strike temp met at 158
Mash temp at 152
Mashed with kettle wrapped in sleeping bag for 60 min.
Checked after 60 minutes and temp was 150/151
Removed after 60 minutes and increased to 165 and covered and let sit for 10 min.
Removed bag after 10 min and squeezed out all remaining wort and dunk sparged.
Boiled 60 min adding hops/misc per above

Pitched yeast at 11:45 AM.

Put in swamp cooler to ferment at 67 for 3 weeks.

Two Hearted
Malts and Fermentables: (Based on 70% efficiency)
2.00 lb Pale 2-Row
0.36 lb Vienna Malt
0.09 lb Carapils
0.09 lb Caramel/Crystal 20L

Hops (used whole hop leaves didn't have pellets):
Centennial- 0.15 oz (used 4.2 grams) @ 60 min.
Centennial- 0.15 oz @ 15 min.
Centennial- 0.15 oz @ 5 min.
Centennial- 0.15 oz @ 1 min.

Dry Hop:
Centennial- 0.2 oz for 7 days

Misc:
1/5 Whirlfloc tablet @ 15 min.

Yeast:
Wyeast American Ale II 1272- Per MrMalty, pitch 0.6 packets

Target OG: 1.065
My OG: 69* @ 1.060 = 1.061 (achieved 66% efficiency)
Target FG: 1.017
My FG: 1.013

Strike temp met at 155
Mash temp at 150
Mashed in pre-warmed oven for 60 min.
Removed after 60 min and increased to 170 and covered and let sit for 10 min.
Removed bag after 10 min. and squeezed out all wort and brought to boil.

Added hops/misc per above.

Pitched yeast at 1:15 PM. Put in fermentation chamber to ferment 2 weeks at 65 degrees until FG is met. Then dry hop for 7 days per above.

Hopper5000 10-19-2012 08:06 PM

How do you do your cooling process. If you have the lid cover on all the way while while cooling it can trap the DMS in the brew and cause off flavors. Try cracking it and letting the steam escape... also when taking the lid off try not to let the condensation drip in the brew.

The buttery is diacetyl most likely as people have said. Since you ferment in the mid 60's you might want to try a diacetyl rest and take your fermenters out of the fridge for a few days and let them warm up a little. This will help them absorb the diacetly.

JeffoC6 10-19-2012 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hopper5000 (Post 4514661)
How do you do your cooling process. If you have the lid cover on all the way while while cooling it can trap the DMS in the brew and cause off flavors. Try cracking it and letting the steam escape... also when taking the lid off try not to let the condensation drip in the brew.

The buttery is diacetyl most likely as people have said. Since you ferment in the mid 60's you might want to try a diacetyl rest and take your fermenters out of the fridge for a few days and let them warm up a little. This will help them absorb the diacetly.

I cool my kettle uncovered in an ice bath. since it's only 1 gallon, it cools within 15 minutes.

since i brew almost every weekend, i usually pull one of my fermenters out of my fermentation chamber with a week or so to go (into the 3 week process) and let it hang out at room temperature (70ish) for the last week. i'm assuming this would be considered as a "diacetyl rest?"

Hopper5000 10-19-2012 08:25 PM

Yeah that would be similar to a rest then. Not sure why you would be getting that problem then... hopefully others can chime in...


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