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Old 06-24-2013, 05:14 PM   #21
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Pitching one wyeast packet or one white labs vial in a wort up to 1.060 isn't underpitching,ime. They peg the airlock centerpiece against the cap in 2-3 hours. By 7:30-7:50 the next morning,they're bubbling steadily. They won't automatically take 3 days to get going or ruin a beer if there aren't 10 guglplex yeast cells. When the manufacturers give an maximum OG where it'll work in a straight pitch,I'm finding that it's pretty much right up to 1.060 so far.
Sorry, but this is just not great advice......
Just because fermentation takes off in a reasonable amount of time is not a good reason to suggest under pitching a beer as good advice.

Making a starter is always recommended for liquid yeast to ensure viability as well as proper pitch rate
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Old 06-24-2013, 05:24 PM   #22
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Sorry, but this is just not great advice......
Just because fermentation takes off in a reasonable amount of time is not a good reason to suggest under pitching a beer as good advice.

Making a starter is always recommended for liquid yeast to ensure viability as well as proper pitch rate
Here we go again. It's in the manufactures recommendations. Both of them. I used one vial in a starter,& one pitched directly & the starter one didn't take off any faster. And viability is insured by the nutrient packet in Wyeast packets. If it swells up,the yeast is "viable". In the 5 days or so the 800mL starter needed to get done (too much DME),it didn't give much more than I started with.
And when using dry yeast,it normally takes 8-12 hours to visibly start fermenting. So that to you is STILL underpitching? Why spend $10-$15 on a pound of DME,& 1-2 packets/vials of yeast to make a big truckload so the beer starts visibly in an hour or two?! 8-12 hours is perfectly reasonable,& not underpitching. All the starter does is take the reproductive phase out of the fermenter to cut lag time. That's all.
Well,time to go to the Dr for my old guy checkup. BRB...
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Old 06-24-2013, 05:35 PM   #23
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According to most followed pitch rates, a single pack/vial (100 billion cells) is good for 5 gal of wort up to about 7º P or 1.028. You can surely get away with pitching less than that in many cases, but if you're looking for an optimum count, I'd recommend to always make a starter for anything over 1.030. That or use dry yeast.

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Old 06-24-2013, 05:40 PM   #24
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I have no intention of arguing this with you and hijacking the thread. There are countless threads discussing this.

Regardless of your experience it is bad advice and there is plenty of science explaining why. Chris White even discusses it at length in his own book.

Simply put your date of pack and gravity in either yeast calculator out there and you will see the proper pitch rate is greater than what the pack/vial has in it unless your beer is 1.030 or less.

Although I'm sure you know this already.......

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Old 06-24-2013, 05:43 PM   #25
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Here we go again. It's in the manufactures recommendations. Both of them. I used one vial in a starter,& one pitched directly & the starter one didn't take off any faster. And viability is insured by the nutrient packet in Wyeast packets. If it swells up,the yeast is "viable". In the 5 days or so the 800mL starter needed to get done (too much DME),it didn't give much more than I started with.
And when using dry yeast,it normally takes 8-12 hours to visibly start fermenting. So that to you is STILL underpitching? Why spend $10-$15 on a pound of DME,& 1-2 packets/vials of yeast to make a big truckload so the beer starts visibly in an hour or two?! 8-12 hours is perfectly reasonable,& not underpitching. All the starter does is take the reproductive phase out of the fermenter to cut lag time. That's all.
Well,time to go to the Dr for my old guy checkup. BRB...

Here we go again. I have searched both Wyeast and White Labs and found interviews or videos where their lab people for both companies state that starters should be made. And if I recall correctly they both recommended starters on anything over 1.040.

5 days for an 800 ml starter? It was done in 2-3.
$10 dollars on a pound of DME? 3 lbs costs me $10 and I can make a lot of starters with that much.

"All the starter does is take the reproductive phase out of the fermenter to cut lag time. That's all."

This quote is true. But that is the time when you are producing off flavors by underpitching.

If underpitching works for you by all means. But suggesting it is not a better procedure is doing a dis-service to new brewers.

Make the starters. Your decent beer will be better!
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Old 06-24-2013, 07:40 PM   #26
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Then why does their label state other than what they say in their books??
I'd love to here that one. I don't think it's wrong when they peg the airlock centerpiece against the cap in 2-3 hours,& start visibly fermenting in the same amount of time the dry packets do. And that particular starter had too much DME in it,imo. I remember the video of the white labs guy saying 24 hours was plenty. I think they take longer.
And those yeast calculators,like Mr malty,lean towards the heavy side,IE over-pitching. It just bugs me that the labels say OG of 1.060 or 1.070 on the other (not naming names). Then the book says something else. That should tell you something. At least make up your own mind from direct observation,rather than who said what. Mine were from direct observation.
And no funky off flavors,save for summer heat. And that's tempororay with what I'm able to afford at this point. So in light of personal experiences what with being the average brewer,it is not bad advice. This has been done to death,& if you think $6.50 for liquid yeast,$5.00 for some DME to make a few starters out of is good,then have at it. Good beer is great of course,but you have to keep in mind how much your spending now. Not amortized over how many batches come out of the amounts you buy.
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Old 06-24-2013, 07:52 PM   #27
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Then why does their label state other than what they say in their books??
You'd have to ask Chris White that. He does talk quite a bit about pitch rates in the book Yeast.... He definitely contradicts the "one pack/vial for wort up to 1.060" thing though.

From ProBrewer.com:

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Pitching rates
The pitching rate for brewer's yeast will depend on the original gravity of the wort to be inoculated. As a rule of thumb, 1 million viable cells per ml of propagated or recycled yeast are inoculated per Plato degree. Liquid and dry yeast manufacturers may have their own recommendation according to their particular product.

Example: For a beer at 10°P or 1.040 gravity (to convert gravity in Plato degrees, divide the last 2 decimals by 4 (i.e. 40/4 = 10). Cell concentration to be inoculated: 10x1x106 cells ml-1 = 1x107 cells ml-1
...also suggests much more yeast than a pack/vial per 5 gal batch. As do MrMalty, BeerSmith and other online pitch rate calcs. No doubt that if conditions are prime (i.e. wort production, temp, dissolved o2, etc.), a pack/vial or two will produce a fine beer, but esters and phenols, along with the precursors to things like diacetyl happen during the reproductive phase (from pitch to high krausen), so you want to limit reproduction in the fermenter.
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Old 06-24-2013, 08:03 PM   #28
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Well,I'm not getting esters like fruity or worse. forget the phenols,not enough to taste anyway. Since they peg the airlock after 2-3 hours,I'd say the reproductive phase has been going pretty well. The biggest reason is that dry yeasts seem to take just as long,even though they have more cells available initially. So it all works out in the end.

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Old 06-25-2013, 05:29 AM   #29
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Then why does their label state other than what they say in their books??

As already said, you would have to ask the yeast manufacturers that question.

I'd love to here that one. I don't think it's wrong when they peg the airlock centerpiece against the cap in 2-3 hours,& start visibly fermenting in the same amount of time the dry packets do.

I would like to know at what temperature you ferment at because I have never had a fermentation peg the centerpiece in 2-3 hours. and I have pitched a pack, dry yeast and starters. The best I have gotten was some bubbling in 4-5 hours.

At least make up your own mind from direct observation,rather than who said what. Mine were from direct observation.

Not to be argumentative but do you think no one has made their own observations. For me, my starters start a lot faster than dry yeast. I have not directly pitched a liquid yeast in almost 2 years and those started very slowly.

And no funky off flavors,save for summer heat. And that's tempororay with what I'm able to afford at this point. So in light of personal experiences what with being the average brewer,it is not bad advice.

This has been done to death,& if you think $6.50 for liquid yeast,$5.00 for some DME to make a few starters out of is good,then have at it. Good beer is great of course,but you have to keep in mind how much your spending now. Not amortized over how many batches come out of the amounts you buy.
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Well you are really overstating the cost of DME in a starter. I would say that I might use $.50 to $.75 of DME in a starter.

Also there are better ways to save money on yeast rather than underpitching. You can wash yeast, repitch on a cake, freeze vials propagated from the original package, or just use dry yeast.

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Well,I'm not getting esters like fruity or worse. forget the phenols,not enough to taste anyway. Since they peg the airlock after 2-3 hours,I'd say the reproductive phase has been going pretty well. The biggest reason is that dry yeasts seem to take just as long,even though they have more cells available initially. So it all works out in the end.
If your procedure is working for you go with it. But I will continue to disagree that it is anything but bad advise to say that you don't need to make a starter when using liquid yeast. At least in anything but very low gravity beers.
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Old 06-25-2013, 01:23 PM   #30
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Well,like I've said before,I chill the wort down to 60-64F. And the wyeast did in fact peg the airlock centerpiece at about 64F in 2-3 hours. Even though it didn't start bubbling till 8-12 hours. This is only the 4th time I've used liquid yeast,& these are my observations. I'm not saying starters aren't need ever. Just that with average gravity beers,starters I've tried didn't speed things up much,if at all. I'll be able to tell more when I mess around with starters more in the future with the yeasts I've saved.
But everything I've said is true to my observations. My basic argument is this-If dry yeasts take 8-12 hours to get through the reproductive phase,& turn out good beers,then why is that not good for liquid yeasts? Yeast is yeast regardless of dry or liquid. The differences (albeit small to my experiences)is in rehydrating or starters. They can cut lag time,but it isn't consisitent or earthshatteringly fast. That kind of thing to me is bordering on over-pitching. What I've been doing has been working,& those that believe it can't...well...my results speak otherwise. So let's just leave it at that till others see what I've experienced. But it's not bad advice if it does work in the proper setting.

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