MrSmug
Well-Known Member
Whats the difference? Are they the same? Which one would come before the other in terms of difficulty?
Thanks
Thanks
AG vs BIAB
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EoinMag
Well-Known Member
BIAB is simply a method of making AG beer.
They are not mutually exclusive terms.
They are not mutually exclusive terms.
bruin_ale
Well-Known Member
There are many ways to mash/sparge to get your wort in all grain. BIAB is one of them. Its one of the more simple ways in that it uses less equipment, although Ive seen some pimped out BIAB systems also.
gunner65
Well-Known Member
BIAB is all grain brewing it is just another method of all grain brewing. It is easy and cheap to get into so many beginners give it a try before building a mashtun or other multi vessel system.
MrSmug
Well-Known Member
Ok so BIAB < AG in terms of equipment/time. Where does partial mashes fit into this? Also what equipment would be required to move from one to the next?
Thanks again
Thanks again
No more partial mashing.
No mash = extract
Partial mash = mini-mash / steeping
full mash = all grain
gunner65
Well-Known Member
Partial is where is you are still using LME and DME with steeping grains (partial Mash). Some of the beer kits already have beginners making partial mash.
EoinMag
Well-Known Member
MrSmug
Well-Known Member
So I've been making extract beers and they all required steeping speciality grains for about 30 mins before mixing in LME/DME. This is considered partial mashing?
EoinMag
Well-Known Member
No, that's steeping. It is similar, read the wiki on here for the different terms.
If you put your grains that are meant for a partial mash into a bag and dunk them into water the correct temperature you mash them to get the enzymes in the malted grain to convert starch to sugar. If you do a larger amount (the correct larger amount) into a bag, dunk that in water like you would for a partial mash it would be called BIAB but in this case you don't need to add extract because all the sugars needed in the beer are extracted from the grain by you, not a maltster. The same temperature of water must be used because it controls how the enzymes work.
The main difference between steeping and partial mashing is temperature control and the use of base malts. Partial mashing requires a little bit more temperature control; with steeping, you've got a wide range of temperatures that will pull out your flavors and sugars, but with partial mashing you've got to stick pretty close to 150°-155°, in that range, usually for about a half-hour or so. Need the time and the right temp so the starches in the grain actually get converted to sugars.
Steeping, you're just rinsing out sugars that already exist in the malt.
Partial mashing, you're making those sugars out of starch, and then rinsing them out. A lot of grains require that you do a mash, because they have not yet had their starches converted to sugars. Crystal malts are converted in the manufacturing process, while base malts and many other kilned malts (like Munich) have not been converted, and therefore require mashing.
Technique-wise, steeping and partial mashing can be nearly identical, although many people find it's easier to introduce a small cooler mash-tun to the mix so that the temperature control is easier (steeping, you can just add your grains when the water is cold and take them out when it gets close to boiling).
Extract with or without steeping grains-
this method is where all of the fermentable sugars come from the extract. the steeping grains give the beer flavors, aromas and body that the extract can not. this is the easiest way to get into brewing and requires only a brew pot and a way to heat it. generally you put your steeping grains in while you bring the pot up to a boil. taking the grains out before the water reaches 170. You continue onto a boil and add your extract and the add your hops at their respective times.
Partial mash-
partial mash is where a part of the fermentable sugars come from grains you mash yourself and part from extract. you most likely mash your specialty grains along with some base malt such as two row or pilsner. since you are only mashing part of the fermentables this method requires less equipment and investment. also if you mess up the mash and get a lower efficiency than expected you can correct this mistake by simply adding more extract. so it is a way to learn some of the basics before you go in hard to all grain. to do a partial mash you must have a way to hold a vessel at a temperature around 150 for about an hour. there are many temperatures and times but those are the basic ones. so you mill the grain and add the grain to water at a temperature that when mixed with the grain will yield a mash temp at around 150. you hold that temp for about an hour and then you remove the grain and sparge it by pouring water over it to reach your boil volume. from there you bring your wort up to a boil and add the remaining extract and proceed with your hopping schedule.
all grain-
all the fermentables and specialty grains are mashed and no extract is used. you mill the grain and add water to get the mash to around 150 and hold that temp for an hour. then you sparge to get your boil volume while also rinsing additional sugars from the grain. after you have your boil volume you begin to boil and proceed with your hopping schedule. this method requires a larger mashing vessel along with a system to keep the larger mash at the specific temperature. if you mess up the gravity you don't have extract to make up the difference.
Brew in a bag-
this is a method of all grain brewing or doing partial mashes. follow the directions for your type of brewing above but instead of simply putting the grain in the water you first put the grain in a mesh type bag and then putting the bag in the water. this method makes it easier to remove the grain from the water and allows you to skip having a system to separate the water from the grain. you still sparge to get your chosen boil volume and if you are partial mashing you can add your extract before you continue with your hopping schedule.
this method is where all of the fermentable sugars come from the extract. the steeping grains give the beer flavors, aromas and body that the extract can not. this is the easiest way to get into brewing and requires only a brew pot and a way to heat it. generally you put your steeping grains in while you bring the pot up to a boil. taking the grains out before the water reaches 170. You continue onto a boil and add your extract and the add your hops at their respective times.
Partial mash-
partial mash is where a part of the fermentable sugars come from grains you mash yourself and part from extract. you most likely mash your specialty grains along with some base malt such as two row or pilsner. since you are only mashing part of the fermentables this method requires less equipment and investment. also if you mess up the mash and get a lower efficiency than expected you can correct this mistake by simply adding more extract. so it is a way to learn some of the basics before you go in hard to all grain. to do a partial mash you must have a way to hold a vessel at a temperature around 150 for about an hour. there are many temperatures and times but those are the basic ones. so you mill the grain and add the grain to water at a temperature that when mixed with the grain will yield a mash temp at around 150. you hold that temp for about an hour and then you remove the grain and sparge it by pouring water over it to reach your boil volume. from there you bring your wort up to a boil and add the remaining extract and proceed with your hopping schedule.
all grain-
all the fermentables and specialty grains are mashed and no extract is used. you mill the grain and add water to get the mash to around 150 and hold that temp for an hour. then you sparge to get your boil volume while also rinsing additional sugars from the grain. after you have your boil volume you begin to boil and proceed with your hopping schedule. this method requires a larger mashing vessel along with a system to keep the larger mash at the specific temperature. if you mess up the gravity you don't have extract to make up the difference.
Brew in a bag-
this is a method of all grain brewing or doing partial mashes. follow the directions for your type of brewing above but instead of simply putting the grain in the water you first put the grain in a mesh type bag and then putting the bag in the water. this method makes it easier to remove the grain from the water and allows you to skip having a system to separate the water from the grain. you still sparge to get your chosen boil volume and if you are partial mashing you can add your extract before you continue with your hopping schedule.
bruin_ale
Well-Known Member
No, BIAB = AG. It's just not your traditional system that has HLT, MLT, and BK vessels but you're still doing all-grain in that it's a full mash, no extract necessary.
you could do a partial mash BIAB.
MrSmug
Well-Known Member
*Removed* questions already answered in above posts
MrSmug
Well-Known Member
Thanks this was very informative
bruin_ale
Well-Known Member
You could, but you don't have to. Hence why I said "no extract necessary".
Similar to how I could do a partial mash on my two tier system, but I can brew a full batch using only grain if I want.
MrSmug
Well-Known Member
So do most amateur brewers use the BIAB approach or at least start off that way before investing in more equipment? Generally speaking is BIAB less efficient then the more traditional way?
In terms of equipment what would be the minimum needed for brewing 5 gallon batches for:
1) BIAB
2) More advanced method of AG
In terms of equipment what would be the minimum needed for brewing 5 gallon batches for:
1) BIAB
2) More advanced method of AG
I would say most people don't do the BIAB but that's just because it is a fairly new technique and the other way is more traditional. I don't think it would be accurate to say that one method of AG is more efficient than the other however your grain crush is generally the biggest factor for efficiency and with BIAB you can crush the snot out of your grain because you don't need to fear a stuck sparge like the more traditional way. However I've never found a reason to shoot for the moon on efficiency because at a certain point you begin to extract tannins from the grain and you don't want those. A consistent efficiency is more important than a high one. A reasonable efficiency of 70% - 80% can be attained easily using either method.
as for equipment you need less in a BIAB set up. theoretically you could have a single pot and a single burner set up for your entire system for BIAB. Really the most complicated you could get would be to do a two vessel system with a hot liquor tank and your mash tun/ brew kettle. a typical brew day on a single vessel system would be like this: you heat the kettle with your strike water in it up to temperature. and then add you bag-o-grain and stir it up really well. then you let it sit for an hour making sure to maintain the temperature by either using the burner or a RIMS set up. then after conversion is complete you take the bag out of the kettle with either a pulley system or place the bag in a strainer above the kettle but out of the water and you pour your sparge water over the grain until you have your boil volume. then proceed with the boil.
for the traditional way you need three vessels (unless you do no sparge) one hot liquor tank one mash lauter tun and one brew kettle. a typical brew day would be like this. you begin to heat up your strike water in the hot liquor tank while you're waiting for that to heat up you add the grain to the mash tun. when your strike water is up to temp you mix the strike water with the grain in the mash tun and then hold the mash at your mash temp (using any of the numerous ways(direct fire, RIMS, HERMS or just simple insulation)). during the mash you begin to heat up your sparge water. once conversion is complete you drain the water off the grain by using something like a false bottom a manifold or a braided hose. so essentially a filter. then depending on how you are sparging (fly or batch) you sparge until you get your boil volume in the brew kettle. once you have your boil volume you begin your boil.
MrSmug
Well-Known Member
What are the required gallon sizes of the HLT, MLT and BK?
for a 5 gallons system I would suggest the brew kettle be 8-10 gallons to allow boil volume on various heating elements and potential boil overs. most people can get away with a 5 gallon mash tun but it might limit how high of a gravity you can reach. hot liquor tank only needs to be big enough to heat your biggest stike or sparge water volume.
bruin_ale
Well-Known Member
Agree on BK, 8-10 gallons is best for a 5G system.
5G is too small for 5G batches, I have a 10G MLT and it gets completely filled for high gravity 5G batches. If you never want to brew with more than 10lbs of grain you'll do fine with a 5G mash tun, but that will get old quick.
TopherM
Well-Known Member
I have been doing AG BIAB for a little over a year now. I have one 11 gallon SS Bayou Classic kettle with their optional SS perferated basket. The basket is the perfect size to hold a 10 gallon paint strainer bag from home depot/lowes/ace ($4.00 for a 2 pack...with a little upkeep, each lasts about 6-8 batches). The basket sits three inches off the bottom of the pot, so my grain and bag are never close enough to a heat source to scorch. I could also add an electric element in that three inch space in the future if I want to go from propane to electric as my heat source.
The basket makes it easy to lift the bag out of the wort. I pull the whole basket, put the basket into a smaller pot to drain, then press the top of the grains with the smaller pot's top to squeeze the grain. I can get a good 50-60% of the wort out of the grain in about 5 minutes with this method, which is about as efficient as it gets without having some sort of actual mechanical press (I've heard of peeps squeezing the bag with their wine press).
I also added my own bulkhead and ball valve to the pot, and run silicone hose from that ball valve through a plate chiller as my chilling method. I'd also like to add a pump in the future to recycle my wort both during the mashout and recycle through the plate chiller.
Here's my pot:
http://www.jr.com/barbour-international/pe/BBR_1144/
I also have a keggle I use for 10 gallon batches, but I don't use it very often.
The basket makes it easy to lift the bag out of the wort. I pull the whole basket, put the basket into a smaller pot to drain, then press the top of the grains with the smaller pot's top to squeeze the grain. I can get a good 50-60% of the wort out of the grain in about 5 minutes with this method, which is about as efficient as it gets without having some sort of actual mechanical press (I've heard of peeps squeezing the bag with their wine press).
I also added my own bulkhead and ball valve to the pot, and run silicone hose from that ball valve through a plate chiller as my chilling method. I'd also like to add a pump in the future to recycle my wort both during the mashout and recycle through the plate chiller.
Here's my pot:
http://www.jr.com/barbour-international/pe/BBR_1144/
I also have a keggle I use for 10 gallon batches, but I don't use it very often.
I guess I didn't do the math. I had just seen lots of people suing those gatorade style coolers and assumed they were 5 gallons. Now that I think about it you would be correct.
bruin_ale
Well-Known Member
I think some of those coolers are actually 5G, and I've heard of people having 5G Mash tuns - but it's usually along the lines of "I hate this 5G mash tun"
I'm currently looking to upgrade to 20G because I sometimes max out the one I have.
MrSmug
Well-Known Member
Someone else actually recommended this exact kettle in another post I have. The only problem I have with this is I would like a ball valve and I really don't know how to install one myself. Was it easy?
DEWSBREW
Well-Known Member
Look in the DIY section of this site, search for weldless fittings, its explained pretty well.
I also used to BIAB ---stuggled with a 7gal turkey pot, upgraded to a 11gal, I too reccomend a 10 gal or larger to do your boils in.
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