Ss Brewing Technologies Giveaway!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Beginners Beer Brewing Forum > AG Mashing question
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 04-03-2013, 09:21 PM   #1
thejuanald
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: North Brunswick, NJ
Posts: 86
Liked 7 Times on 7 Posts
Likes Given: 10

Default AG Mashing question

So I will be doing my first all grain batch this weekend and I've been reading and reading about the process and I had a quick question. I will be doing a batch sparge in a 10 gallon round cooler. Beersmith tells me for 16 lbs of grain, I should mash with 5.80 gallons of water (at 1.25 qts/lb, adjusting for tun dead space), and then sparge with 3.8 gallons up to a total of 6.90 gallons of wort pre-boil, and a fermentation size of 5.40 gallons (accounting for trub loss and boil off).

My question is, I was under the assumption that you should sparge with more water than you mash with. Is this correct or is using less sparge water fine? Also, Is 6.90 gallons pre-boil a good amount? To me it seems like a little much. I feel like I am probably over-thinking this (grad student in engineering currently trying to finish my thesis). Thanks for all the help!

I am pretty much using Yooper's Ruination clone recipe (except I increased the amount of grain and hops a bit) from here: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f69/ston...-clone-155771/

__________________
thejuanald is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-03-2013, 10:07 PM   #2
BlackGoat
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Tustin, CA
Posts: 715
Liked 77 Times on 66 Posts
Likes Given: 53

Default

something seems off to me, it looks like you'll have a bit too much mash water. My calculation is 16(lbs) x 1.25 (quarts) = 20 quarts.... or 5 gallons. Also, you are not accounting for grain absorption when calculating out how much wort you will have after the mash. The grains will probably absorb about a gallon or more.

__________________

Primary: English Gold
Secondary: 2013 Dark Stock (on oak), Wee Heavy on oak
Bottled: Sir Suspicious Oatmeal Stout, Victorious Brown Ale, Wee Rambunctious Scotch/Belgian Hybrid

BlackGoat is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-03-2013, 10:50 PM   #3
JLem
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Attleboro, MA
Posts: 3,641
Liked 168 Times on 148 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

You can expect the grain to absorb 0.5 quarts per lb (0.125 gallons per lb) during the mash. Since the grain has absorbed all it can during the mash, you will be able to collect most of the sparge water you add. Because of this I routinely mash with more water than I sparge with. I like to have equal volumes of 1st and 2nd runnings.

JLem is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-03-2013, 11:02 PM   #4
JayMac
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Guelph, Ontario
Posts: 252
Liked 10 Times on 9 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

BlackGoat, his strike water amounts include the MT dead space.

If you use 5.8gal of strike water, my guess is your first runnings will have a volume of about 3.8-4gal. John Palmer (and I believe BeerSmith) says grain absorption is in the range of 0.1gal/lb grain. this would mean 1.6gal for your setup. Your mash tun will not have 0.8gal of deadspace; I believe it will be closer to 0.5gal. That brings us to about 2gal lost in the mash.

if you pull off around 4gal, you'll need to sparge with about 3gal to get near 7gal pre-boil. I have a pot with a large diameter, so I boil off 1.5gal/hr at a rolling boil, so it's definitely not excessive to have 6.9gal as your preboil (I aim for 5.5gal so that my losses to trub leave me with a full 5gal). However, you don't need to worry about Sparge volumes: Fill your BK with water, .5gal at a time. Use a stick, and mark the level for each volume. Now, when you do your lautering, you put the stick in, and see how much you have. preboil-first runnings=roughly amount of strike water.

You may not hit your numbers, and that's fine. What you should really focus on, is to tune in the deadspace in your MT. Keep a log book which notes the water used (sparge+strike), the pre boil volume, and the lbs of grain. You should be able to eventually see a trend of how much isn't being accounted for by absoption (i.e. deadspace). If you wanted to be REALLY technical about it, you could do the following.

Do a number of brews with varying amounts of grain (8-16lbs). Plot loss of water vs. mass of grain used. (i.e. Sparge+Strike-Preboil vs. lbs of grain). This should give you a straight line in the region of 8-16lbs. Extrapolate this line to the Y-axis. This value is your MT dead space. Essentially: Waterloss=L*lbs grain + deadspace. The "L" is the grain absorption, and this is likely how the 0.1gal/lb was determined.


Goodluck!

__________________
JayMac is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-03-2013, 11:33 PM   #5
thejuanald
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: North Brunswick, NJ
Posts: 86
Liked 7 Times on 7 Posts
Likes Given: 10

Default

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayMac View Post
BlackGoat, his strike water amounts include the MT dead space.

If you use 5.8gal of strike water, my guess is your first runnings will have a volume of about 3.8-4gal. John Palmer (and I believe BeerSmith) says grain absorption is in the range of 0.1gal/lb grain. this would mean 1.6gal for your setup. Your mash tun will not have 0.8gal of deadspace; I believe it will be closer to 0.5gal. That brings us to about 2gal lost in the mash.

if you pull off around 4gal, you'll need to sparge with about 3gal to get near 7gal pre-boil. I have a pot with a large diameter, so I boil off 1.5gal/hr at a rolling boil, so it's definitely not excessive to have 6.9gal as your preboil (I aim for 5.5gal so that my losses to trub leave me with a full 5gal). However, you don't need to worry about Sparge volumes: Fill your BK with water, .5gal at a time. Use a stick, and mark the level for each volume. Now, when you do your lautering, you put the stick in, and see how much you have. preboil-first runnings=roughly amount of strike water.

You may not hit your numbers, and that's fine. What you should really focus on, is to tune in the deadspace in your MT. Keep a log book which notes the water used (sparge+strike), the pre boil volume, and the lbs of grain. You should be able to eventually see a trend of how much isn't being accounted for by absoption (i.e. deadspace). If you wanted to be REALLY technical about it, you could do the following.

Do a number of brews with varying amounts of grain (8-16lbs). Plot loss of water vs. mass of grain used. (i.e. Sparge+Strike-Preboil vs. lbs of grain). This should give you a straight line in the region of 8-16lbs. Extrapolate this line to the Y-axis. This value is your MT dead space. Essentially: Waterloss=L*lbs grain + deadspace. The "L" is the grain absorption, and this is likely how the 0.1gal/lb was determined.


Goodluck!
Thanks a lot for this post. Everything is much more clear with it. Yeah, looking at beersmith, I was just using the default values for loss to boil, loss to trub, dead space, and loss to fermentation. I will definitely do this experiments and more to gain a more accurate idea of the values for my particular setup.

And thank you for the clarification on sparge water volumes. Why do some resources say you should use up to a 1/2 gallon sparge water per pound of grain?
__________________
thejuanald is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-07-2013, 04:00 AM   #6
JayMac
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Guelph, Ontario
Posts: 252
Liked 10 Times on 9 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thejuanald
Thanks for the replies, everyone.

Thanks a lot for this post. Everything is much more clear with it. Yeah, looking at beersmith, I was just using the default values for loss to boil, loss to trub, dead space, and loss to fermentation. I will definitely do this experiments and more to gain a more accurate idea of the values for my particular setup.

And thank you for the clarification on sparge water volumes. Why do some resources say you should use up to a 1/2 gallon sparge water per pound of grain?
Sparge volumes are not directly dependent upon amounts of grain used.

For example, if you mash with 1.25 qt/lb, or 1.5qt/lb, your sparge volumes will be different as your first runnings will contain different amounts. Come to think of it, 0.5gal per pound of grain doesn't make sense. For a big beer with 14lbs... That's 7 gallons sparge. That would mean you get no water from your mash!

Quick and easy way: mash with 1.25 wt/lb. sparge until you reach pre boil!

Cheers.
__________________
JayMac is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-07-2013, 08:17 PM   #7
thejuanald
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: North Brunswick, NJ
Posts: 86
Liked 7 Times on 7 Posts
Likes Given: 10

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayMac View Post
Sparge volumes are not directly dependent upon amounts of grain used.

For example, if you mash with 1.25 qt/lb, or 1.5qt/lb, your sparge volumes will be different as your first runnings will contain different amounts. Come to think of it, 0.5gal per pound of grain doesn't make sense. For a big beer with 14lbs... That's 7 gallons sparge. That would mean you get no water from your mash!

Quick and easy way: mash with 1.25 wt/lb. sparge until you reach pre boil!

Cheers.
Thanks for the reply, I will definitely follow that rule. I tend to over think things. I have everything to brew next weekend. I will get my starter going probably on Wednesday or Thursday for brewing on saturday.
__________________
thejuanald is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-08-2013, 01:03 AM   #8
JayMac
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Guelph, Ontario
Posts: 252
Liked 10 Times on 9 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thejuanald View Post
Thanks for the reply, I will definitely follow that rule. I tend to over think things. I have everything to brew next weekend. I will get my starter going probably on Wednesday or Thursday for brewing on saturday.
Thursday will be good, a couple days is plenty of time.

Almost everyone starts out worrying too much! That's why the veterans on this forum love the saying RDWHAHB! It's pretty hard to screw up a beer, honestly. The most important factor is to make sure everything is sanitized properly. If you can fight off an infection, your beer is bound to be a success.

Cheers, and good luck on Saturday!
__________________
JayMac is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A question about mashing High_Noonan All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 7 09-04-2012 05:53 PM
Mashing in question BetterSense All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 4 06-17-2012 02:33 AM
Mashing question mrduna01 All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 3 07-27-2011 09:30 PM
Mashing question NyPDFustercluck Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 14 04-04-2011 12:55 AM
Mashing Out Question batfishdog37 All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 3 02-15-2009 05:50 PM