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 Home Brew Forums > ABV tampering advice, what do you think?

10-05-2012, 06:37 PM   #51
papa87
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I understand what you're saying Nordeast, I'm just perplexed by why Beer Calculus/Brewers Friend Calculator SPECIFICALLY set to extract/extract with steeping grains (nothing mash, partial mash, all grain etc.) does what it does. One program says I'm going from 4.5% ABV to 5.3%, while the other says I'm going from 4.5% to 5.8% ABV.....all hinging on me STEEPING 1 lb flaked wheat, 1lb munich malt 10L, 1lb white wheat malt. If I was not adding those steeping grains, I would get 4.5%ABV from the 6.6 lbs of LME. These programs must be inaccurate, because the numbers completely suggest you ARE in fact getting at least some fermentable sugars in your steep, otherwise that 4.5% wouldn't budge hardly at all. To me, these would definitely be significant ABV increases, if accurate. I'm not saying it's right I'm just saying this is what two programs are telling me. If you are wondering what I mean just do a quick http://beercalculus.hopville.com/recipe OR http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/calculator/ with the ingredients mentioned above. 5 gallon 60 minute boil, extract etc. I know in the end the gravity readings will be the judge and jury, but I just find it confusing programs would suggest these ABV boosts from a steep

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10-05-2012, 06:37 PM   #52
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by NordeastBrewer77 The starch in crystal malts would only be converted to sugar if it was mashed. When steeped, you're only able to rinse of the crystalized sugars on/in the grain. Thus the difference between the way my software was viewing crystal malts in an All Grain batch as opposed to an Extract batch. I know it's against forum rules to tell someone to "go read" or "Google it", but please do some reading on these crystal malts and how they're made. You either seem very confused about this topic or are just..... we'll leave it at you being confused.
Yes and it is mashed and that's how it's converted into sugar. Mash inside the grain

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10-05-2012, 06:51 PM   #53
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by papa87 I understand what you're saying Nordeast, I'm just perplexed by why Beer Calculus/Brewers Friend Calculator SPECIFICALLY set to extract/extract with steeping grains (nothing mash, partial mash, all grain etc.) does what it does. One program says I'm going from 4.5% ABV to 5.3%, while the other says I'm going from 4.5% to 5.8% ABV.....all hinging on me STEEPING 1 lb flaked wheat, 1lb munich malt 10L, 1lb white wheat malt. If I was not adding those steeping grains, I would get 4.5%ABV from the 6.6 lbs of LME. These programs must be inaccurate, because the numbers completely suggest you ARE in fact getting at least some fermentable sugars in your steep, otherwise that 4.5% wouldn't budge hardly at all. To me, these would definitely be significant ABV increases, if accurate. I'm not saying it's right I'm just saying this is what two programs are telling me. If you are wondering what I mean just do a quick http://beercalculus.hopville.com/recipe OR http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/calculator/ with the ingredients mentioned above. 5 gallon 60 minute boil, extract etc. I know in the end the gravity readings will be the judge and jury, but I just find it confusing programs would suggest these ABV boosts from a steep
Hmmm, I've never used either of those calcs that you linked, but I'll check them (maybe just one since you're getting similar results) out and see how it compares to what BS2 is saying. My guess, and this is just a guess but it's based on your numbers jiving with what BS gives me when set to 'AG', is that those calcs are assuming some conversion even when set to 'extract'. Hopefully someone who's used one of those can chime in.
Experience, is that just steeping grains lends little the the SG of the wort, but next time I brew an extract beer (next week), I'll steep one lb in one gallon and check the SG of the wort after steeping (it will be .5 lbs of carapils and .5 lbs of cara 10).
I'll post back what I get from the calc(s) that you're using.

Edit: Ok, so I used the Brewers Friend (I couldn't find 'extract' and 'all grain' settings on Hopville) and it did indeed give me the same numbers for 3 lbs of cara 40 regardless of 'extract' or 'AG' settings. OG 1.014 in a 5 gal batch, which jives with what BS gives me when set to 'all grain' (1.013). When BS is set to 'extract', that same 3 lbs gives me and OG of 1.003.
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 Originally Posted by yeoitsmatt can i drink this? I mean. Im gunna. But is it fine?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by yeoitsmatt it's not a barley wine. it's an ale.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by bottlebomber Have you seen the price of ketchup lately? And I'm not talking Heinz.

10-05-2012, 06:58 PM   #54
papa87
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Sounds good and I appreciate it. I've used those links due to seeing them repeatedly used throughout this site, in forums etc. I'm no URL/software wiz but I certainly can't find anything saying mash or allgrain method is being used, pretty straight forward ive selected extract from what i've seen in the programs. Certainly could be wrong though.

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10-05-2012, 06:58 PM   #55
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From HBT Wiki:

The crystallization/caramelization process:
To make crystal or caramel malt, maltsters take green malt and, instead of heating it in a dry kiln, stew it in an extremely damp or wet oven. In the presence of water, each kernel of grain essentially undergoes a mash in the hull, converting the grain's starch to sugar. However, since the grain is not crushed, the sugar does not go into solution and create wort. Instead, when the temperature is lowered, the sugar crystallizes in the hull, giving the grain the appearance of a crystal of sugar. The malt is then dried over heat, with the drying temperature and time determining the color and flavor characteristics of the finished product.

This may solve some of the problems here.

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10-05-2012, 07:14 PM   #56
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by OG2620 From HBT Wiki: The crystallization/caramelization process: To make crystal or caramel malt, maltsters take green malt and, instead of heating it in a dry kiln, stew it in an extremely damp or wet oven. In the presence of water, each kernel of grain essentially undergoes a mash in the hull, converting the grain's starch to sugar. However, since the grain is not crushed, the sugar does not go into solution and create wort. Instead, when the temperature is lowered, the sugar crystallizes in the hull, giving the grain the appearance of a crystal of sugar. The malt is then dried over heat, with the drying temperature and time determining the color and flavor characteristics of the finished product. This may solve some of the problems here.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by papa87 Sounds good and I appreciate it. I've used those links due to seeing them repeatedly used throughout this site, in forums etc. I'm no URL/software wiz but I certainly can't find anything saying mash or allgrain method is being used, pretty straight forward ive selected extract from what i've seen in the programs. Certainly could be wrong though.
Yeah, my experience with software spans from BrewPal (iPhone) to BeerSmith 2 and nothing in between. Haven't used anything else other than just playing around. The Hopville seems alot like BrewPal, the BrewersFriend actually seemed like pretty decent software.
What I'm thinking is that the BF calc is making the assumption of conversion even if the grains are only steeped. I am pretty sure that BrewPal did a similar thing, although that's only based on entering my old BP recipes into BS2. In the great scheme of things, I'm not sure this really matters as long as you're hitting your gravity numbers targeted by the software you're using.
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by yeoitsmatt can i drink this? I mean. Im gunna. But is it fine?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by yeoitsmatt it's not a barley wine. it's an ale.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by bottlebomber Have you seen the price of ketchup lately? And I'm not talking Heinz.

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10-05-2012, 07:21 PM   #57
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Well said Nordeast, and I appreciate all the input. I'll let gravities be my primary guide, as anyone should. Just interesting they must assume conversion. Regardless, I greatly look forward to my 2nd batch that isn't "Hefe Ultra", like the original cause of the thread haha

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10-05-2012, 07:26 PM   #58
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by papa87 Well said Nordeast, and I appreciate all the input. I'll let gravities be my primary guide, as anyone should. Just interesting they must assume conversion. Regardless, I greatly look forward to my 2nd batch that isn't "Hefe Ultra", like the original cause of the thread haha
Ya know what, if it weren't now autumn, a ~3% hefe would be a perfect beer. I brew a really light honey hefe for summer, clocks in just under 4%. Very light and crisp, but if I use the 3068 yeast it has a nice complexity from the esters and the honey. Enjoy this one for what it is, and go for the double imperial IPA next time out.
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Brewin' 'n' Que'n - YouTube Shenanigans

Quote:
 Originally Posted by yeoitsmatt can i drink this? I mean. Im gunna. But is it fine?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by yeoitsmatt it's not a barley wine. it's an ale.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by bottlebomber Have you seen the price of ketchup lately? And I'm not talking Heinz.

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10-06-2012, 12:56 AM   #59
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by madchemist83 But if all the starch in crystal malts is converted into sugar how are you getting more sugars while mashing with base malt ?
It's "premashed" so to speak, but it still needs to be crushed. The sugars AREN'T on the outside, on the husks (how would that happen?!?) but since it's stewed before kilning, it's already mashed for you so that the sugars are crystallized. Crushing them is imperative, but they can be steeped successfully.
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10-06-2012, 12:58 AM   #60
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By the way, there seems to be some confusion here.

You DO get fermentables from crystal malt, along with color and flavor. The amount of fermentables isn't all that significant (say, 1% ABV or so) but you do get them.

Try it and see! Steep a pound of crystal malt (crushed) in .5 gallon of water. And then take the SG reading of that. You'll have some sugars, for sure!

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