Is 5 degrees worth $500?

BBL_Brewer said:

There's no way your going to build one of those big enough to hold 4 ferementers for $100. Plus, it's going to take up a lot of space, it's inherently messy, and would require a freezer full of gallon jugs to operate. Better off just getting a freezer and a controller and be done with it.

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No, what I said was that you could build 4 fermentation chambers for that money, not one that holds 4 fermentors. If you built it well it wouldn't be messy at all, and when you're fermenting ales, the ice only needs to be changed out every other day.

If you want one chamber that can hold 4 fermentors at once, you're going to spend a lot of money. That's just reality. I don't think you can get 4 in a standard fridge (maybe with some mods and only using buckets)- you'd have to go to a pretty massive chest freezer. That said, a nice, upright fridge on craigslist in SWMBO approved condition will probably still cost you less than half a G.

My feeling is this: if you're only two beer drinkers in one house, and both your square footage and your budget is limited, why would you need to have 20 gallons of beer (eight cases) actively fermenting at one time, plus whatever's bottled, conditioning, or on secondary?

ayoungrad said:

I got a NuCool frig (search for a link on this site if you are interested) off of craigslist. It's almost silent because it doesn't use a condensor (so no threat of leaking either) and it has a stainless steel front. So it looks unassuming. It is also the smallest size frig you can find to fit a five gallon bucket.

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I also have a NuCool fridge (abandoned by the previous owners - students). I actually wired up an Auber temp controller, which was overkill -- the eBay controller detailed on this board would have been cheaper, but the Auber has an adjustable dead-band/hysteresis. Sometimes I've wondered about running it in proper PID mode since the NuCool is Peltier-based ... but of course the response time on 5 gallons of wort is so slow that it is essentially impossible to overshoot the set point temp. I usually use a thermowell to measure the actual beer temp during fermentation.

My beer is more consistent since I began controlling the temperature. Plus, now when something comes out a little "off," it is easier to pin down the problem!

Right now I have a bourbon barrel old ale that takes 6 months and an apfelwein that is 4 months to ferment. Yeah, I know, some of that time can be in the bottle.

We drink about 4 cases a month between all. I get a case and half of Grolsch bottles (+/-) per 5 gallon batch. So that's 3ish batches a month with a month in primary + the longer-fermenting ones.

IffyG said:

If it was constant adjustment I'd do it the way you suggested, but I've found I only have to change the temp twice (once when it takes off and once when it slows down) over the course of the fermentation. For me, this is far less effort than trying to tape the probe to the bucket on the brew day and then removing it later.

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The adjustment is as "constant" as you feel necessary for the temp variance you feel is adequate. As I said before, do whatever you like. I am just explaining another method. Maybe others feel that strapping or taping the probe to the fermentor isn't that much work to not have to manually control their controller. It should be apparent the temp variance will be less if the probe is placed directly on the fermentor. This does require a modern controller with an acceptable variance resolution. Old school analog controllers with fixed ~4F diff cannot be used taped to the fermentor.

The placement of the probe is irrelevant as the entire point I was making was that the ambient temperature in a fermentation chamber during an adequately controlled fermentation will provide a differential much greater than 5* as implied in the title of the thread.

It's hard for us to pick out the best way for you to control temp since we don't know your exact living arrangements. You will need to decide that.

I'm currently looking into buying a small dorm fridge and building a chamber off of that to hold 3 or 4 buckets. The dorm fridge will cost me no more than $50 on CL and the wood and insulation shouldn't cost me much more than $50 to $60 too. For $100 I can keep 4 buckets at the exact temp I want (I already built an eBay temp controller which would cost another $30 for you). For the money, I find that to be the best option. If done right, you shouldn't get much moisture, if any, and it will keep your buckets at any temp you want.

IffyG said:

The placement of the probe is irrelevant as the entire point I was making was that the ambient temperature in a fermentation chamber during an adequately controlled fermentation will provide a differential much greater than 5* as implied in the title of the thread.

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Except that you keep touting your method by downplaying any negative aspects I bring up. I am just providing information to others that are contemplating a temp control and probe placement strategy. You feel that your way works for you, and I feel that placing the probe directly on the fermentor, then insulating, works for me.

Feel free to critique my method, like you already have by saying that taping the probe to the fermentor is too difficult, for you.

Next time you have your probe taped to your bucket stick a thermometer in the fridge to measure the air temp... it's not going to be what you set the controller to. That's the only point I was making. The OP seemed to think he was only looking at 5 degrees below the current ambient temp.

At no point was I was not advocating my method over yours. There are plenty of other threads discussing how to place the probe and the OP should investigate properly before making any decisions. That being said, it doesn't matter if the sensor is in a thermowell, measuring ambient temp in the fridge or taped to the bucket as long as you are going by the temperature of the BEER and not the AIR.

The bottom line is the main thrust of this thread is "should I get a freezer/fridge for temp control?" The answer is yes and it would be worth 500 dollars if that's what you need to spend to achieve that goal.

Thanks for all of the replies. I think my original question has been answered.

The other issues that have arisen can be new threads once I have a temp control system in place.

IffyG said:

That being said, it doesn't matter if the sensor is in a thermowell, measuring ambient temp in the fridge or taped to the bucket as long as you are going by the temperature of the BEER and not the AIR.

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It does matter where the probe is if you can't be around to manually adjust it. The point I am trying to get across (to people besides you) is that if you use air temp as the control input, you have to inject yourself into the control loop as a second controller. What if you have to go out of town, even for a day?

Since this guy is new to temp control, I was just making him aware of different strategies. As you suggest, researching different methods of probe placement is a good idea.

Are we done acting so butt-hurt?

Strangelove said:

Thanks for all of the replies. I think my original question has been answered.

The other issues that have arisen can be new threads once I have a temp control system in place.

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Be sure to let us know how things go with the Minister of Finance.

IffyG said:

Next time you have your probe taped to your bucket stick a thermometer in the fridge to measure the air temp... it's not going to be what you set the controller to. That's the only point I was making. The OP seemed to think he was only looking at 5 degrees below the current ambient temp.

At no point was I was not advocating my method over yours. There are plenty of other threads discussing how to place the probe and the OP should investigate properly before making any decisions. That being said, it doesn't matter if the sensor is in a thermowell, measuring ambient temp in the fridge or taped to the bucket as long as you are going by the temperature of the BEER and not the AIR.

The bottom line is the main thrust of this thread is "should I get a freezer/fridge for temp control?" The answer is yes and it would be worth 500 dollars if that's what you need to spend to achieve that goal.

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Yes it definitely is worth spending the money to buy or build a fermentation chamber. However, since the placement of the probe was brought up it would be best for the OP to know and not feed him bad information.

You said "That being said, it doesn't matter if the sensor is in a thermowell, measuring ambient temp in the fridge or taped to the bucket as long as you are going by the temperature of the BEER and not the AIR". While part of this is true, part of it is wrong. You say it should be the temp of the beer and not the air...that is 100% true. However, you say the placement of the probe doesn't matter...that is 100% not true. If you place the probe away from the bucket, it will be measuring the ambient air which can be up to 15* off from the beer. The best placement is either taped and insulated to the side of a bucket or in a thermowell.

I'm not trying to start any arguments. I just want the OP to have correct information/

h22lude said:

I'm not trying to start any arguments. I just want the OP to have correct information/

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Then you should give the OP the whole story. Letting the temp control hang in the air inside the ferm chamber is an acceptable way to control the fermentation temp if you don't mind fiddling around with the differential between ambient temp and fermentation temp. That is the correct statement.

Personally, I don't know why people do it this way but to each their own. Strapping/Tapeing the probe to the side of the fermenter takes all of 15 seconds to do and it is truly a set and forget option.

I can't believe how petty this has become!
The OP will figure out what works for him or will search it out in other threads.

I'm suprised that no one has mentioned the easiest and cheapest method yet.

A swamp cooler is basically free and will stabilise the temperatures. I believe the OP said he has an amient temp of +/- 68 degrees. A swamp cooler will hold that to within 1 degree without messing with it.

After the first 3 or 4 days of fermentation, you'll want to warm it up a few degrees anyway, so just take it out of the swamp cooler and let the yeast warm it up a couple of degrees.

No muss, No fuss. Cheap and easy!

Lagers are a whole different story.

Keep on brewing!

Bull

broadbill said:

Then you should give the OP the whole story. Letting the temp control hang in the air inside the ferm chamber is an acceptable way to control the fermentation temp if you don't mind fiddling around with the differential between ambient temp and fermentation temp. That is the correct statement.

Personally, I don't know why people do it this way but to each their own. Strapping/Tapeing the probe to the side of the fermenter takes all of 15 seconds to do and it is truly a set and forget option.

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Very true. You can use the ambient temp to control the fermentor as long as you always keep an eye on it. Just like you said, taping the probe to the side of the bucket takes less than 1 minute to do and will save you a lot of time fiddling with the temp.

bullinachinashop said:

A swamp cooler is basically free and will stabilise the temperatures. I believe the OP said he has an amient temp of +/- 68 degrees. A swamp cooler will hold that to within 1 degree without messing with it.

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A swamp cooler is a great way to keep your wort at the right temp and it is very cheap. I like Yooper's design a lot. The only problem I see is it seems like what ever the OP uses, it will be out in the living area of the apartment and it seems like he doesn't want it to be an eyesore. I personally wouldn't care having a swamp cooler out but that might be something the OP doesn't want hanging out in the apartment...but it is a very good solution.

bullinachinashop said:

I can't believe how petty this has become!
The OP will figure out what works for him or will search it out in other threads.

I'm suprised that no one has mentioned the easiest and cheapest method yet.

A swamp cooler is basically free and will stabilise the temperatures. I believe the OP said he has an amient temp of +/- 68 degrees. A swamp cooler will hold that to within 1 degree without messing with it.

After the first 3 or 4 days of fermentation, you'll want to warm it up a few degrees anyway, so just take it out of the swamp cooler and let the yeast warm it up a couple of degrees.

No muss, No fuss. Cheap and easy!

Lagers are a whole different story.

Keep on brewing!

Bull

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a swamp cooler is fine while you are sorting out what you're going to do with this hobby, if you intend on doing it for the long term then a fridge is really the no muss no fuss option. a swamp cooler in the long term is like driving around with a plastic bag as a window replacement in your car; it works but not as well as a real window.

All arguments aside, I never considered getting a dorm fridge, using the guts and building an enclosure. Glad I read through this as I have a narrow staircase to the basement, so I could just build in place.

boswell said:

All arguments aside, I never considered getting a dorm fridge, using the guts and building an enclosure. Glad I read through this as I have a narrow staircase to the basement, so I could just build in place.

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If your chamber will be bigger than a normal sized fridge, you might look into the window A/C unit cold room builds. A bunch more BTU's at your disposal, and larger chamber capacity. The guts of a dorm fridge can only do so much.

Duly noted. I've found so many cheap HUGE chest freezers, but at the bottom of my (finished) basement steps its only 24 inches, otherwise id have a fermentation behemouth.

I bought a 7.2 cu. in. freezer at COSTCO for $216. Not sure how many of your fermenters you can fit in it. I do mine in 2 gallon paint buckets and can pute about6 in there by stacking them w/the airlocks in place.