Why don't extract brewers sparge?

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manicmethod

manicmethod

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I put all my recipes in BrewMate so it tells me what kind of OG I should be expecting, but I was never even coming close.

The last few batches I started heating up some water in another pot while my specialty grains were steeping and when steeping was done I'd pull out the bag and put it on a drying rack above the kettle and pour the other water on it. Since then my OG has been getting much closer so I have to assume there were a bunch of trapped sugars in the bag.

Why don't instructions, kits or even advanced howto's tell you to sparge? It is so easy and gets far better yields.
 
I've seen Craig on craigtube doing that with partial extract kits. I'm surprised the kit doesn't mention sparging. It just seems like common sense to me. You want all the sugars you can get out of the grains.
 
Because in an extract kit the specialty grains make up very little of the overall gravity and are rather for flavouring and colouring. Why in your case it is getting you closer to your OG I have no idea but the little amount from sparging is probably not the case... may be... but I doubt it.
 
IMO,it should matter to some smaller extent. Grains are grains,no matter how much or how little. You want the maximum from them,so his sparging seems to be helping,all other things being equal...
 
Ya you are correct there but you have to remember that 1# of extract is more than 1# of grains. But you are correct that they do matter some. I guess I should have asked how far the OGs were off to begin with and form an opinion that way.
 
PurpleJeepXJ said:
Ya you are correct there but you have to remember that 1# of extract is more than 1# of grains. But you are correct that they do matter some. I guess I should have asked how far the OGs were off to begin with and form an opinion that way.
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Before I started sparging they would deviate from what Brew Mate said they should be by .004 to .010 gravity. Though looking back at my notes I did have one where Brew Mate said it should be 1.080 and it was 1.066. That particular recipe had 1# of specialty grains.

Maybe Brew Mate's calculations are just way off.
 
Depending on the specialty grains there really shouldn't anything with enough diastatic power to create and sugars. Therefore there is no reason to sparge since there is no sugar.

Unionrdr; do you mind toning down your signature? It's a little visually abusive.
 
Every program or site uses different formulas than the other but that aside +/-.005 is not bad at all, now +/-.015 is a different story. I still dont think it is the grains. Test and calibrate your hydrometer and your thermometer. By my calculations 1# of Crystal 40L in 5gal only accounts for .006 of the overall gravity and that is with 90% efficiency. Maybe I just like to have the alternate opinion.
 
By definition you get no conversion when doing Extract w/ speciality grains.
If you're getting any conversion the process becomes Partial Mash.
 
MBasile said:
Depending on the specialty grains there really shouldn't anything with enough diastatic power to create and sugars. Therefore there is no reason to sparge since there is no sugar.

Unionrdr; do you mind toning down your signature? It's a little visually abusive.
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I made it that way on purpose so the message would get across. Not to be visually abusive or distracting.
 
Like what AnOldUR said. If there is no base grain in your steeping grains (usually there is not), you are not getting any startch to sugar convsersion, therefore no sugars to be rinsing from a sparge. You're increased eff came from something else, and with it being extract, the only thing it could be would be a different brand of extract possibly, but most likely, just a better mixed sample from your wort. Lots of OG readings with extract come out "low" from the wort not being adequately mixed with the topoff water.
 
IrregularPulse said:
Like what AnOldUR said. If there is no base grain in your steeping grains (usually there is not), you are not getting any startch to sugar convsersion, therefore no sugars to be rinsing from a sparge. You're increased eff came from something else, and with it being extract, the only thing it could be would be a different brand of extract possibly, but most likely, just a better mixed sample from your wort. Lots of OG readings with extract come out "low" from the wort not being adequately mixed with the topoff water.
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I do full boils, no top off water. I also only use northern brewer gold malt extract so I don't know what the gravity difference could be due to.

Maybe I do need to calibrate my hydrometer.

OTOH there is a good bit of colored water that comes from the bag when I pour water on it so I'm still getting something good out of it, even if it isn't sugar.
 
im seen a lot of suggestions to either rinse specialty grains with water from your main boiling vessel as you strain them or to dip the bag in the boil water if they were steeped in a bag to maximize color and flavor extractions

maybe you can post an example of a recipe here to see what OG someone else comes up with?
 
Rinsing does not really equal sparging. Sparing is a more involved process with the end goal of extracting sugars for base malt. Rinsing is poring water over your specialty grains to drain the flavors and colors (like making tea). There is very little fermentable sugar involved. You technically could sparge specialty grains but the effort that goes into it vs. the small amounts of sugar you would extract aren't really worth it. We're talking like 1-3% of your total.
 
Quazado said:
Rinsing does not really equal sparging. Sparing is a more involved process with the end goal of extracting sugars for base malt. Rinsing is poring water over your specialty grains to drain the flavors and colors (like making tea). There is very little fermentable sugar involved. You technically could sparge specialty grains but the effort that goes into it vs. the small amounts of sugar you would extract aren't really worth it. We're talking like 1-3% of your total.
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IMHO sparging seems to be made out to be some involved, complex process. But, in reality, the main thrust is just to obtain already converted sugars into the wort. These are sugars that were converted during mashing but remain with the grains in the grain-absorbed water. Sparging is simply adding new water to essentially wash the sugar water away from the grain. Call it what you will: rinsing or sparging but it really is a pretty straightforward process.

I realize that little to no sugar will result from specialty grains but the concept is the same.
 
IrregularPulse said:
Like what AnOldUR said. If there is no base grain in your steeping grains (usually there is not), you are not getting any startch to sugar convsersion, therefore no sugars to be rinsing from a sparge.
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Not entirely true. You are right in that there is no starch conversion from steeping because there is no base grain providing diastatic power, but crystal/caramel malts are "pre-mashed" as it were, stewed and kilned to convert the starch and crystalize the sugar in the grain. So while you aren't creating sugars with a steep, you are indeed rinsing them from the grain. How fermentantable they are is another story, but they will contribute gravity points, body and flavor.

With that said, #1 of steeping grains isn't going to have that big an impact on the overall OG. Extract brews are extremely predictable. When you add add enough water to make one gallon of wort with one pound of liquid extract, for example, you will always be within a point or so of 1.036. If manicmethod's OG is off he either added too much water, too little water, his hydrometer is off, or his (or his recipe's) math is off. I'd try plugging the numbers into one of the other brewing calculators, this one, for example or download the free trail of Beersmith.
 
unionrdr said:
I made it that way on purpose so the message would get across. Not to be visually abusive or distracting.
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Might want to add another "o" in "too" ;)

As in regard to the original post - your gravity most likely didn't change because of the sparging but because of something else you missed.

I never once sparged my steeped grains and every one of my recipes has been within .001% of Beersmith's estimates for my recipes. In other words, for example if my recipe came out to 1.048 OG in Beersmith I might actually get 1.049 or 1.047. In addition, steeped grains are usually used in much lower quantities than grain bills for AG brewing. Where an AG recipe might have 12lbs of grains an extract with steeped grains might have 1lb for example. That's nowhere near enough to make up such differences just from sparging.


Rev.
 
Chad said:
Not entirely true. You are right in that there is no starch conversion from steeping because there is no base grain providing diastatic power, but crystal/caramel malts are "pre-mashed" as it were, stewed and kilned to convert the starch and crystalize the sugar in the grain. So while you aren't creating sugars with a steep, you are indeed rinsing them from the grain. How fermentantable they are is another story, but they will contribute gravity points, body and flavor.

With that said, #1 of steeping grains isn't going to have that big an impact on the overall OG. Extract brews are extremely predictable. When you add add enough water to make one gallon of wort with one pound of liquid extract, for example, you will always be within a point or so of 1.036. If manicmethod's OG is off he either added too much water, too little water, his hydrometer is off, or his (or his recipe's) math is off. I'd try plugging the numbers into one of the other brewing calculators, this one, for example or download the free trail of Beersmith.
Click to expand...

I've used Brew Mate for 100% of my recipes. I think my off gravity is due to too much water and not adjusting for temperature with my hydrometer. I now have a thermometer+hydrometer so I can see the temperature of the sample and not have to trust the liquid crystal thermometer on the side of the fermenter, which doesn't seem to be very accurate.
 
manicmethod said:
Actually "to" is correct, he's not trying "to" be "too" abusive. He used it as a preposition, not an adverb.
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Wow. Here it is, nice and simple. Try to remember it this way. Too, with 2 o's can almost always be replaced with the word 'also'. In this case, as a preposition he is 100% correct and Rev2010 is wrong.
 
could be that the supplier is a couple ounces +/- on the weight.. that could cause a difference.. i never realy cared how close i was when i did extract as long as i was in the ballpark and the batch turned out good..
 
manicmethod said:
Actually "to" is correct, he's not trying "to" be "too" abusive. He used it as a preposition, not an adverb.
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Unless "seriously" is a place (as in, "don't take your kids to the zoo"), there is no reading of "to(o) seriously" in which we're dealing with a preposition.

jjward101 said:
Wow. Here it is, nice and simple. Try to remember it this way. Too, with 2 o's can almost always be replaced with the word 'also'. In this case, as a preposition he is 100% correct and Rev2010 is wrong.
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The OED lists "too" as having over a dozen definitions. "Also" is one, but "excessively" is another.

P.S. "Sparge" is just German for "sprinkle".
 
Ummm WRONG!

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/too

2.
to an excessive extent or degree; beyond what is desirable, fitting, or right: too sick to travel.

From another dictionary:

Too (adverb) - in addition; as well; besides; also; more than enough; superfluously; overly; to a regrettable extent; extremely

http://www.educationbug.org/a/to-vs--too.html

http://www.planetoid.org/grammar_for_geeks/two_vs_too_vs_to.html

I'm not even going to argue this it's so ridiculous you guys don't know the difference. :rolleyes:

*EDIT - for the record... I'm guessing the two people confusing "to" and "too" got the posting wrong. I was responding to Uniondr's signature in which he has, "never take life to seriously". If you still think that is correct and it shouldn't be "too seriously" you need to go back to school.

Rev.
 
you guys are arguing over different sentences

rev2010 is referring to the sig which he originally asked about
never take life to seriously...you'll never get out of it alive! So chill out,& have a beer!
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i believe some of you are referring to the post that rev quoted
I made it that way on purpose so the message would get across. Not to be visually abusive or distracting.
Click to expand...

:mug:
 
terrapinj said:
rev2010 is referring to the sig which he originally asked about
Click to expand...

Yes exactly! Geez, I thought WTF for a moment. I didn't realize anyone that didn't read the entire thread history would be replying out of context but I guess that's what happens when people don't read the whole thing.


Rev.
 
"Why don't extract brewers sparge?" can also be lengthened out as "Why do not extract brewers sparge?", which would not make much sense. Shouldn't it be "Why do extract brewers not sparge?"?
 
Visual abuse corrected. uniondr, feel free to PM me if you dislike my edit, and perhaps we can compromise.

As much as I hate bad grammar, this thread is not the place to debate/discuss it. As this is a technical subforum, please stick to the topic posted by the OP.
 
Yuri_Rage said:
As much as I hate bad grammar, this thread is not the place to debate/discuss it. As this is a technical subforum, please stick to the topic posted by the OP.
Click to expand...

Agreed, and I apologize for flipping out. At first I had no concept in mind that my post was misinterpreted so I took being quoted as "wrong" rather insultingly knowing how elementary the grammar was. I reacted a bit harshly. Now that I know where the confusion lay it's actually rather amusing :D

Anyhow, back on topic! :tank:


Rev.
 
Well all i have to add is after i started reading this forum i added sparging(rinsing or whatever) to my extract kits that had specialty grains. On every one that I did that I beat the estimated og by 1.002-1.005 so I personally think its worth the extra pot to split your original boil water into. As it cost 0 time extra.
 

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