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Old 03-09-2007, 02:54 PM   #1
Ol' Grog
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Default sweetness and maltiness

In my quest to "understand" the brewing process and to increase sweetness in my brews, I am getting confused on these two terms.
I thought maltiness is refering to sweetness, but I think I'm wrong. A "maltier" brew does not mean a sweeter flavor, right? I would actually have to add something like what I came across below:

Sucrose - table sugar, cane sugar, beet sugar, dehydrated cane juice
priming & boosting ABV if you don't mind a cidery flavor
alpha D-fructose + beta D-glucose = sucrose
Dextrose - Brewer's sugar Priming & boosting ABV without that cidery flavor
Maltodextrin - MD, malto dextrin (not to be confused with Dextrin Malt which is the grain form)
non-fermentable used to boost body & mouthfeel
Lactose - Milk sugar - non-fermentable used to add sweetness
Maltose - the main fermentable derived from barley
Glucose - half of a Maltose, also found in honey and corn syrup. ABV booster
Fructose - fruit sugar, found in honey, corn syrup and high-fructose corn syrup ABV booster
Invert sugar - glucose + fructose (but slightly different twists)
belgian candy sugar - slightly caramelized invert sugar

But I'm confused. What could I add to increase the sweetness? If I add cane sugar, I crank up the ABV and make for happy yeast, but not necessarily the sweetness. Fructose would have the same affect, right?
Where would I add, and what exactly, of the _ose family to increase sweetness factors? If I add it at the secondary stage, I'm concerned that all I'm doing is starting the CO2 affect early, as in bottling. Not really crazy about adding fruit to my kegs.

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Old 03-09-2007, 02:57 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Grog
In my quest to "understand" the brewing process and to increase sweetness in my brews, I am getting confused on these two terms.
I thought maltiness is refering to sweetness, but I think I'm wrong. A "maltier" brew does not mean a sweeter flavor, right? I would actually have to add something like what I came across below:

Sucrose - table sugar, cane sugar, beet sugar, dehydrated cane juice
priming & boosting ABV if you don't mind a cidery flavor
alpha D-fructose + beta D-glucose = sucrose
Dextrose - Brewer's sugar Priming & boosting ABV without that cidery flavor
Maltodextrin - MD, malto dextrin (not to be confused with Dextrin Malt which is the grain form)
non-fermentable used to boost body & mouthfeel
Lactose - Milk sugar - non-fermentable used to add sweetness
Maltose - the main fermentable derived from barley
Glucose - half of a Maltose, also found in honey and corn syrup. ABV booster
Fructose - fruit sugar, found in honey, corn syrup and high-fructose corn syrup ABV booster
Invert sugar - glucose + fructose (but slightly different twists)
belgian candy sugar - slightly caramelized invert sugar

But I'm confused. What could I add to increase the sweetness? If I add cane sugar, I crank up the ABV and make for happy yeast, but not necessarily the sweetness. Fructose would have the same affect, right?
Where would I add, and what exactly, of the _ose family to increase sweetness factors? If I add it at the secondary stage, I'm concerned that all I'm doing is starting the CO2 affect early, as in bottling. Not really crazy about adding fruit to my kegs.
Lactose or maltodextrine adds sweetness and are both non-fermentable. You can add them at any time, but I'd suggest in the primary so that some will settle out and you can adjust prior to bottling if necessary.
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Old 03-09-2007, 03:27 PM   #3
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Sweetness and maltiness are definitely different. Maltiness can come more from your saccrification mash temperatures and overall grain bill / hop balance. Sweetness is more a by-product of unfermentable sugars, like lactose, etc, that the yeasties do not gobble up and turn into alcohol. If you want more body in your beer, mash in the upper 150's. more ABV, and a lighter body, closer to 150.

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Old 03-09-2007, 03:41 PM   #4
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Sweetness and maltiness can be improved by using low attenuation yeasts. Windsor is a good example in a dry yeast.

To just add sweetness: Lactose is about 1/2 as sweet as sucrose, MD about 1/5th. Adjust to taste in the bottling bucket. Milk stouts typically use 4-8 oz. of lactose.

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Old 03-09-2007, 04:57 PM   #5
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This where the confusion is, Cheese says to use MD to add sweetness, everywhere else I read says it only improves mouthfeel and boost body. Not sweetness. Adding lactose....when boiling the wort? Won't affect the sugar chains will it? Then I read adding at primary.... Let's see if I'm even getting closer on the yeasting....if I use a lower attenuative yeast, that means the yeast don't eat up all the sugar leaving some behind which results in sweetness. Right? But, the ABV level decreases also. Kind of like a direct relationship. I've been using Nottinghams and probably need to try Windsor. Are there any other dry yeast out there that works as well like Safale 04, Coopers? Yeah, I'm still into dry yeast.

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Old 03-09-2007, 05:35 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Grog
This where the confusion is, Cheese says to use MD to add sweetness, everywhere else I read says it only improves mouthfeel and boost body. Not sweetness. Adding lactose....when boiling the wort? Won't affect the sugar chains will it? Then I read adding at primary.... Let's see if I'm even getting closer on the yeasting....if I use a lower attenuative yeast, that means the yeast don't eat up all the sugar leaving some behind which results in sweetness. Right? But, the ABV level decreases also. Kind of like a direct relationship. I've been using Nottinghams and probably need to try Windsor. Are there any other dry yeast out there that works as well like Safale 04, Coopers? Yeah, I'm still into dry yeast.

Hey nothing wrong with dry yeast. Windsor is a very good yeast.

I just want to reinforce something that you could be overlooking, which has been mentioned above. Your Hop bitterness is used to balance the sweetness of the malt. That is one major tweak. Reducing the amount of Bittering hops will steer your final product to the sweeter side. The trick is, all of the things mentioned here (above) tie together to form how the beer will taste! If you play with one variable at a time and see the effect, you'll appreciate each tweak as a tool you can use to produce the product you are after. Sometimes what really makes a beer is not what you can add but rather, what you can remove. Many brewers overlook this, by trying to add more. The answer is sometimes to add more of a particular thing, and sometimes it is to add less.

As for a comment along what cheese mentioned is that drier, thinner bodied beers in general do not seem to hold the malty/sweet flavors on the palate as the thick types do. It is all about perception and there are many layers that you can tweak.

On a side note...table sugar does not produce a cidery characteristic when used as a small amount of the total grainbill. This also hinges on what else is in the beer.
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Old 03-09-2007, 05:39 PM   #7
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You might want to look at a different extract and find one that is less fermentable.

Another thing to try is using higher L crystal grains. If you're doing a darker beer and want a little more sweetness use Crystal 80 or 120 instead of 60. The flavor is a little different, but the higher roast means more unfermentable sugars.

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Old 03-09-2007, 05:47 PM   #8
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If I know I want a creamier sweeter Stout or Porter, I'll go ahead and factor in both some Malto and Lactose. I like Oats as a mouthfeel "helper" too, but those will affect your ABV.

I usually wait until it is time to keg or bottle, taste and then determine if I want to up the sweetness for these types. If so, then I'll add Lactose to the bottling bucket.

What kind of beer are you thinking about? Or is there a particular style you tasted and want to brew but up the sweetness a little?

Different styles will benefit from different sweetening and "mouthfeelering" (I just made that word) adjuncts.

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Old 03-09-2007, 08:10 PM   #9
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The style was an American Amber. One batch I made was just about there, but could be a little sweeter. That particular recipe had 8 oz. crystal 60L, adhered to what Brewsmith was saying. Thanks. Cleared up a lot and boy, you just got to love this hobby, there is never enough to learn and if you think you'll master it one day, dream on. Anyway, I'll sure take into consideration to what ya'll said. Look at changing my grain bill around some, lessen the bittering hops and trying a little lactose when going to final keg conditioning.
At this point in my brewing learning curve, I'm using predominantly LME and some DME. Like about 6 pounds of Amber LME and about one pound of light DME. I know I don't like the hallertau hops, leaning towards fuggles and williamette. Soon, I will be doing full 5 gallon boils. Could my brew, in terms of sweetness, benefit from partial or mini-mashing?

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Old 03-09-2007, 10:06 PM   #10
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Yes, mashing gives you much more control over the sugar profiles. Mashing at higher tempertures (154-158F) give you a less fermentable wort that will finish sweeter.

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