Nobody Knows the diacetyl secret

How the hell do I get the desired amount of diacetal in my beer? This is not exclusively a yeast selection issue. I am drinking so many commericial beers that have this marvelous diacetyl quality, but i have no reliable guidelines for getting appropriate amounts in my homebrew. WTF?

From a flavor standpoint, I understand what you are saying, but it's still the first time I've heard of someone wanting to put a hangover into their beer.

snoochhandytardman said:

How the hell do I get the desired amount of diacetal in my beer? This is not exclusively a yeast selection issue. I am drinking so many commericial beers that have this marvelous diacetyl quality, but i have no reliable guidelines for getting appropriate amounts in my homebrew. WTF?

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This has got to be sarcasm, right?

Make a microwave popcorn farmhouse ale and then bust out the Reddenbachometer.

hahahaha Reddenbacher, I get it .......hahhahahhahahahahhahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhaahhahahahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahahhahahahhahahaha!

And no the point of this thread is not sarcasm.
There is diacetyl taste is in beers like samual smith's pale ale, elysian ipa, fuller's winter welcome, etc. These are great beers. So no....this definently is not sarcasm.

So if someone wants to give advice that isn't moronic, please do.

Sorry, I'm sure no one means to be moronic but we spend a great deal of time and energy trying to keep off flavors OUT of our beer that it's just a head scratcher when someone else is doing the opposite. No one means to be condescending.

Well, since diacetyl does age out somewhat, you'd get more of it in green beer. Also, some yeasts do produce it more than others. Try a lager yeast and pitch it at a higher than fermentation temperature and then bring it down and don't do a diacetyl rest. Some lager yeasts don't require a diacetyl rest, but some do. If you use one that requires a diacetyl rest and don't do it, you'd end up with diacetyl in your beer. Also, I believe London Ale yeast produces diacetyl and you might want to try that.

Along with what Yooper was saying, I believe it's more of product of certain types of yeast. I was asking my LHBS about a diacetly rest, and it seems like Nessie - some people believe it, some don't. I always thought the diacetyl comes from higher floculating yeast (like Wyeast London Ale) that ferments fully at a higher temperature.

Racking off the cake early would help, as does a more flocculate yeast. Maybe going so far as filtering immediately, because the yeast consume diacetyl after the fermentation cycle.

I'll be sure to take snoochhandytardman more seriously next time.
It's obvious that his question baffled those with a collective 12,000 post count.


Consider my "moronic" post a free bump in the future.

olllllo said:

I'll be sure to take snoochhandytardman more seriously next time.
It's obvious that his question baffled those with a collective 12,000 post count.


Consider my "moronic" post a free bump in the future.

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Yeah, internet tough guys rule, don't they?

A bit like highway tough guys. The amount of fingers I see people use.
They wouldn't have the guts to do that in a pub.

really? they scare the beejeeburz outta me

Thanks for the help guys. This site has always been a great place to get good info.

There is tons of information on diacetyl in beer.

All you need to do is read the advice on how to keep it out and break those rules.
Ferment hot and put straight into cool storage and drink fairly green.

The most helpful advice I could give you is to focus on finding out what causes the flavours you like in the commercial beers you are referring to, because it probably isn't diacetyl.

The buttery element may be the pleasant creaminess of flaked wheat or maybe lactose added to the mash. If it is sweeter, maybe it is honey malt. I could see these flavours being confused with the sickly buttery flavour diacetyl provides.

The popcorn flavour may be a lightly toasted note that any number of the toasted grains provide. It might even be corn or maize in some form although it usually adds nothing to the flavour profile.

In any case, you probably aren't going to get these flavours in any great amount from specialty grains which you are not mashing (this being in the extract section) which is probably why you are incorrectly looking to yeast and diacetyl production to provide the answer. If you fully explore all-grain brewing you will find that there is more than one way to make almost any given general flavour, whereas extract is extremely limited. I would encourage you to look into all-grain if you haven't already done so as your pursuit of unique and specific flavours warrants it.

If you were offended by any of the responses, they were strong in opinion only because desiring diacetyl in your brew is in many cases akin to wanting your wort to become infected. It's not something that people generally desire in their beer.

Ok, thanks. My sources of information are papazian's "the complete joy of homebrewing," and my lhbs which luckily is run by a master brewer (Pike Brewery for 6 yrs). It is possible that this flavor, which is distinctively buttery, comes from a source other than diacetyl. However this would imply Papazian (p109 in tcjohb) is incorrect on research he has done, and the process of which he cites specifically, on brewing diacetyl into beer. Perhaps diacetyl is generally a negative flavor, but is "certain styles" is a postitve one. Beer taste is fickel; Lambic is made by infecting your malt with bacteria, breweries make delicious and distictive beer with water that is nearly undrinkable, spoiled hops, ect.
I AM NOT AN EXPERT!!
My snob level is low and i am always happy to give/recieve informed advice.

http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/113/571/?ba=scoobybrew

http://media.www.theprofileonline.c...rtsEntertainment/The-County.Line-821522.shtml

http://www.beerpal.com/Middle-Ages-Beast-Bitter-Beer/5367/

E -A -C ! coming up!

I (try to) brew a lot of British ales and so I deal with diacetyl quite a bit. The biggest concentrations come when I use Safale 04 (Whitbread, i believe) and ferment at a fairly low temp--around 63/64F. If I bottle/keg the ale while it's still cool, it will retain a diacetyl flavor/aroma for a couple weeks.

Example: I did a London Pride-ish special bitter at 1.040 a couple months ago. Fermented with S-04 at 63F, bottled and minikegged straight outa the fermenting fridge. Since it was low gravity, I drank several after a week in the bottle. They had a fairly big caramel/toffee flavor. The next week, there was less flavor. And the minikeg, which was tapped after a month conditioning, had only a trace amount. For me, the trace amount is plenty to complement the brew.

Incidentally, when using S-04, I've noticed that if I set the fermenter on my kitchen counter for 2-3 days (~75F), there is much less toffee flavor at bottling time. I guess this is the "rest", correct? I know very little about technical brewing stuff and have never tried lagers.

Hope some of this helps.

Monk

Re-Aeration of the wort 24 hours into fermentation can generate acetyls for a butterscotch taste.

or try this.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=28094

Thanks orfy, i saw that hugh thread when i first happened. After looking around more, I've found that the yeast in these beers that I like so much, are fairly unique. Sam Smith uses a traditional yeast that produces this butterscotch flavor in spades, to the point they re-rouse the yeast to reduce the flavor. It apparently is very flocculant. I think ill try wyeast london esb or safale4 like monk recommended, ferment fairly high ( 73 F), and bottle the second fermentation is finished. Mabey add some maltodextrin. I wonder how these breweries keep this flavor in their beer after more than 2 wks though? Probably filtering.