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Old 03-11-2009, 08:25 PM   #1
Schnitzengiggle
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Default Late extract addition and Hop Utilization.

I'm going to be brewing a Sweet Stout possibly this weekend, if not, next week for sure. I have researched threads on this and most say to reduce hops by about 20-25% or so due to higher hop utilization with lower gravities. I have begun doing late extract additons and using Beersmith for some calculations. Here is the recipe:

Type: Extract (Late Addition)
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 3.00 gal
Boil Time: 60 min

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
4.50 lb Amber Dry Extract (12.5 SRM) - Dry Extract 56.25 %
1.00 lb Wheat Dry Extract (8.0 SRM) - Dry Extract 12.50 %
1.00 lb Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) - Grain 12.50 %
0.75 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) - Grain 9.38 %
0.75 lb Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) - Grain 9.38 %
1.50 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (60 min) - Hops 17.1 IBU
0.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (15 min) - Hops 3.1 IBU
1.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Irish Ale (White Labs #WLP004) [Starter 1000 ml] Yeast-Ale

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.050 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.76 %
Bitterness: 36.3 IBU
Est Color: 46.0 SRM

According to Beersmith (Hops Bitterness Calcualtor), if I were to just steep my grains I would have a SG of 1.002 and if I were to add my bittering hops at the boil for 60 minutes that would give me 25.9 IBU's and with my last hop addition at 15 minutes that would give me another 6.5 IBU's. However, I will be adding all of my DME for the last 15 minutes of the boil, which will affect the gravity, reducing hop utilization. My Brew Sheet states that the Pre-Boil Estimated SG with all grains/extracts added is 1.084, though, all the DME will be added late (last 15 min).

Why would Beersmith calculate the Pre-Boil Estimated SG with all grains/extracts added when doing a "late addition"?

Why the difference between the Hop Bitternes Calculator on Beersmith (total=32.4 IBU's) and the actual recipe (total=36.3 IBU's)?

Will there be a significant difference in the total IBU's because of the higher gravity when adding all of the DME in the last 15 minutes?

I made sure to check the late extract additon in the recipe so I'm a little confused???

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Last edited by Schnitzengiggle; 03-11-2009 at 10:17 PM. Reason: Switched to Amber DME
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Old 03-12-2009, 03:53 AM   #2
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I have a spreadsheet that uses the hop utilization formula given in How to Brew. If you truly only used the steeping grains before you boiled, your starting gravity would be 1.0095 if you boiled with 3 gallons.

Note that in general, partial boils try to hit S.G during the boil that is similar to the final brew. I am comfortable shooting a little lower, but read that you should have SOME extract in the wort to help properly isomerize the alpha acids. I think I read that 1.020 is considered some sort of minimum.

Anyways, even with the S.G. at the start of the boil at 1.0095, I come up with 32.9 IBUs. If your boil S.G. were really 1.002, then you would end up with 35.4 IBUs.

One of the reasons I did my spreadsheet was that I had heard that Beersmith didn't handle late extract additions very well, and I see myself doing only extract brews for awhile, so I wanted the flexibility to account for different levels of lateness, etc.

So, I don't think it's good idea to boil your hops without some extract in the boil, but then you would likely need more hops to hit your target IBU level.

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Old 03-12-2009, 06:06 AM   #3
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I'd like to hit middle of the road for hops and a Sweet Stout is 20-40 IBU's so I'd be happy w/30-34 IBU's or so. I'm just really confused about the conflicting info on these threads and what Beersmith came up with. Now that you mention it I did read somwhere about having some DME to isomerize the alpha acids more efficiently. I wonder if indeed the calculations from Beersmith would be accurate for the "recipe" given adding the DME at 15 minutes left in the boil. I suppose I could add the 1lb of Wheat DME after steeping grains and add hops. I would prefer not to be at the high end of the hop scale for this style as I personally don't think that hops should "shine" through in a traditional style stout other than an Imperial. I do appreciate your help, not too many have seemed to want to tackle these questions. Thanks fro the input, Brew on!

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Old 03-12-2009, 06:11 AM   #4
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I have begun to distrust BeerSmith lately. With a little messing around, I somehow managed to get it to say I got 103% efficiency on my last batch. Anyway, I know it is arguable, but for what it's worth, here are the late addition IBU conversations we've had...

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/how-...n-using-87998/
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/full...ization-88417/

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Old 03-12-2009, 05:16 PM   #5
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I think you'd be fine adding the wheat DME after you steep the grains.

I've noticed my spreadsheet is wrong, so I don't know exactly what your IBU level would be, but it should be somewhere around 30. It would be about 32 if you added the extract at flameout (something some folks do).

Looks like a pretty good plan, although I have your OG at 1.058. Beersmith seems to estimate less yield when steeping grains than the Palmer book. I really don't know which might be more accurate.

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Old 03-13-2009, 08:10 PM   #6
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What about dilution when adding top off water as BarleyWater suggested in the thread links he listed, does top pff water dilute that much? So, if 2-2.5 gallons of topp off are being added after boil that will reduce the IBU's further? It makes sense, if you were to make tea and then add a bunch of water to that tea it would indeed be weaker than before the extra additon. I'm still new to this, but the only way I see reaching my target IBU's w.this recipe is to increas my bittering hops by 1oz making a total of 2oz's right?

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Old 03-14-2009, 04:56 AM   #7
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No, I think what you posted will be fine, and I assumed you would top off to a finished total of 5 gallons. If you want to make the final batch size 5.5 gallons, you'd probably be OK, and you could counter that a bit by adding your final extract even later (it doesn't need 15 minutes in the boil - 10 shoul dbe fine, or even 5). Going from 5 to 5.5 gallons is a 10% change, so your IBUs would be about 10% less if you simply diluted more at the end. Thta would put you somewhere around 29 IBUs, so you wouldn't need to adjust much.

I really think 2 oz will be too much, although still within the style range. If you like hoppiness, then go for it. If you want to be at 30 IBU, you're good at 1.5 oz.

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Old 03-14-2009, 05:37 AM   #8
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That is really what is confusing to me. Top-off water will dilute/reduce IBU's right? It seems as though Beersmith's calculations may be off, I did the math according to Palmer's equations in his book and just from the 1st hop additon I calculated only 20 IBU's @ SG 1.014 (assuming I did my math right I am notoriously bad at making mistakes). With Beersmith, the brew sheet (instructions) basically calculate the total wort gravity at 1.085 with all DME added, and I can't wrap my head around why it would calculate that SG when I entered the DME as late additions. I'm going to just go with my original recipe to see what happens. My concern isn't that the IBU's will be too high, it's that they may be too low contributing to an overly sweet beer. If anything, with late additions/partial boils from what I've read, it is hard to get very high IBU's such as in an IPA. Again it is just confusing to me that Beersmith gives me a mid 30's IBU but realistically if it is calculating SG @ 1.084 with all extract added then how could I possibly attain the IBU's it claims. I guess the better question is, does Beersmith calculate for top-off water in it estimations? If I say my total volume is ~5.00 gallons, and my boil voulume is 3.00 gallons, is it taking top-off into consideration? I would assume so, but I have read conflicting info on this topic adding to my misunderstanding.

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Last edited by Schnitzengiggle; 03-14-2009 at 05:40 AM.
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Old 03-19-2009, 04:51 PM   #9
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That's why I have opted for the "homebrewed" home brew spreadsheet! At least that way I know the limitations and assumptions behind the calculations, and I can provide degrees of freedom or simplify as I wish.

Someone likely knows how beersmith accounts for late extract addition, but most of us would have to use it, see how it calculates thingsa, then provide a good guess at what it seems to be doing.

I'm guessing that if you do your own calculations using Palmer's utilization equation (it's not HIS equation, but we understand each other on that point), you will have a very good estimate of the IBUs.

Note that in general, late extract addition might let you get say up to 20% more IBUs for the same amount of hops, but 10% is probably more typical. This difference isn't going to make or break your beer. But I'm like you in that I like to understand EXACTLY what I'm attempting, so from that standpoint, I wouldn't trust Beersmith with properly handling late extract addition until you understand how that feature works. It sounds like that check box makes some general assumptions about what late extract addition means. Or, it may simply not calculate something correct in that mode.

Good luck!

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Old 03-19-2009, 05:26 PM   #10
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I agree with you completely. I might be a little O.C. on this, but just like everyone here on this forum I want to make the best beer possible within my means. I didn't have a chance to taste the sample I took, because I accidentally got some star-san overspray into it with my squirt bottle. I know they say you can drink that stuff, but I would'nt. In a few weeks when I take my sample for gravity reading I'll post how it is. Thanks again for your input and advice!

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