Late Addition/Hop Utilization

So... I've been adopting the concept of late addition of LMEs/DMEs. I started a little at a time, and now Im fully embracing the concept due to the better color I notice in my beers.

I have noticed, however, a greater hop presence in these beers. The more I read it seems the late additions of the extracts show that perhaps I'm getting a greater hop utilization? Is this true? Is there any tried and true numbers behind this or testing I can get to iron out my process so my brews arent hoppier than expected? I'm still following basic/online/prepack recipies for the most part...

Now I think about it... maybe this has effect on final ABVs as well? I noticed this last American Amber I brewed had an OG of 1.042 and a FG of 1.014... giving me about 3.6%abv from my calculations. Perhaps this is related to my 1/2 // 1/2 approach (1/2 @ Boil, 1/2 @ last 15m)?

Suggestions? Numbers? Rules of thumbs?

You definitely get better hop utilization with late extract addition. I use BeerSmith to compute it. I start with the standard recipe, switch the extract to late add, then adjust the hops down to get to the original IBUs. I don't know the formula if you don't use software but I think I've seen it out there before.

Regarding the ABV, I don't think it affects that - or at least I have never seen it in my brewing with late extract add.

secinarot said:

You definitely get better hop utilization with late extract addition. I use BeerSmith to compute it. I start with the standard recipe, switch the extract to late add, then adjust the hops down to get to the original IBUs. I don't know the formula if you don't use software but I think I've seen it out there before.

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Beersmith (and pretty much all homebrewing software) gets this wrong pretty dramatically. The formulas used by software are based on the old, mistaken belief that hop utilization is affected by wort gravity (pretty much all home brewing texts convey that myth too, though I'd expect it to be corrected in forthcoming additions of How to Brew and others).

Hop utilization is independent of wort gravity, and the impact (if any) of late extract addition on IBUs is much, much smaller than what software will calculate.

The most recent test on this was Basic Brewing Radio's experiment where they brewed the same recipe (same hop schedule) as a full boil, partial boil, and partial boil with late extract additions, then measured the IBUs of the 3 beers in the lab. Hop utilization was essentially identical (the three came out with nearly the same IBUs).
March 4, 2010 - BYO-BBR Experiment III:
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=radio

You can listen to John Palmer's "What is an IBU, Really?" from 20 March 2008 where he discusses the issue in some depth (including apologizing for getting this wrong in the most recent edition of How to Brew):
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=basic-brewing-radio-2008

Now, there are some effects that often correlate with wort gravity that can impact final utilization--e.g. isomerized alpha acids can adsorb to break material. Those are much smaller effects than what brewing software calculates, though, and are pretty minimal in extract brewing (see the test above).

More discussion here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/estimating-bitterness-algorithms-state-art-109681/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/hop-utilization-178668/

secinarot:
I always viewed BrewSmith as a AG tool - I suppose I should get my hands on it and import my recipes I purchase and see what it tells me. Even if the calculations are old, knowledge is power... allegedly.

SumnerH :
I'll definitely look into those links and read/listen up a bit. I do find it strange however that since I've started doing the late additions, I've noticed all my brews having significant more hop flavor than the previous. Of course, this could be for a number of reasons (none of which I'm aware of), but this 'seemed' to sound right to me.

For the record, I'm using 'proven' recipe kits from LHBS, Northern Brewer, and AHS -- all with pretty consistent reviews on flavor profiles and such. Mine, generally, are showing more a more pronounced hop profile than one would gather from the consensus.

SumnerH said:

The most recent test on this was Basic Brewing Radio's experiment where they brewed the same recipe (same hop schedule) as a full boil, partial boil, and partial boil with late extract additions, then measured the IBUs of the 3 beers in the lab. Hop utilization was essentially identical (the three came out with nearly the same IBUs).
March 4, 2010 - BYO-BBR Experiment III:
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=radio

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Interesting.

BillyVegas said:

SumnerH :
I'll definitely look into those links and read/listen up a bit. I do find it strange however that since I've started doing the late additions, I've noticed all my brews having significant more hop flavor than the previous. Of course, this could be for a number of reasons (none of which I'm aware of), but this 'seemed' to sound right to me.

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I agree. When I first did late extract addition, I didn't know much about IBUs at all. But I remember saying, "This beer is almost twice as bitter as the original recipe!". The only thing that changed was doing late extract addition (and later, full boil). When I added it into Beersmith quite a while later, sure enough the IBUs went from 15 to about 27!

Now, I realize that they are finding out that IBUs are independent of wort gravity. But John Palmer says that break material has much to do with it.

I don't know the "real" reason and why the BYO experiment was so different than my own experiences, but in my own experience the late extract addition does impact the bittering level of the beer in low IBU beers. I never did it with beers like IPAs, so maybe it's not so pronounced in higher IBU beers but with my lower hopped beers (like the Dead Guy clone), it was definitely more bitter to my taste buds and quite a bit so.


I'm enjoying the new information coming out on "what is an IBU?" and will continue to read new studies and experiments.

YooperBrew said:

I agree. When I first did late extract addition, I didn't know much about IBUs at all. But I remember saying, "This beer is almost twice as bitter as the original recipe!". The only thing that changed was doing late extract addition (and later, full boil). When I added it into Beersmith quite a while later, sure enough the IBUs went from 15 to about 27!

Now, I realize that they are finding out that IBUs are independent of wort gravity. But John Palmer says that break material has much to do with it.

I don't know the "real" reason and why the BYO experiment was so different than my own experiences, but in my own experience the late extract addition does impact the bittering level of the beer.

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I have a guess that perhaps the compounds that affect hop flavor and aroma are physically larger in size than isoalphas, hence their solubility is more affected by the gravity of the wort. That'd mean that the absolute bittering was less affected by gravity, but flavor and aroma (and hence perceived bittering) are somewhat more affected. It's just a guess, though.

But I also don't think that partial boil vs. full boil has nearly a "twice as bitter" effect, personally; subjectively, it seems like a full boil is maybe slightly more bitter, but not a whole lot. That's why I got interested in the topic to begin with.

It may be that the effect varies to the taster; e.g. some people may perceive higher bitterness based on flavor/aroma and less on isomerized AA% than others, or some may perceive oxidized betas more than isoalphas, or something. I have no evidence for any particular mechanism (all of those "somethings" could easily be wrong), but it seems like to some people the bitterness is way off from the measured IBUs in one way or another--this could also explain why some people taste, for instance, Dogfish Head 120 minute and view it as pretty hoppy while others taste it as a hopless syrup bomb (or whatever).

I'm not really sure how to isolate and measure that. I do know that throwing curacao peel, quinine, or unsweetened cocoa into a beverage won't raise the measured IBUs, but will certainly change how bitter it tastes, so IBUs certainly aren't an absolute measure of bitterness. But I also think that subjectively, the gravity adjustments for hop utilization are _way_ over the top to me, while to other people (e.g. Yooper) who I believe are absolutely forthright and well informed they seem fairly accurate. So there's probably some personal variance in play, too.

SumnerH said:

But I also don't think that partial boil vs. full boil has nearly a "twice as bitter" effect, personally; subjectively, it seems like a full boil is maybe slightly more bitter, but not a whole lot. That's why I got interested in the topic to begin with.

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But here's why I think it WAS "twice as bitter"- it was a 15 IBU beer. The original was always a malt bomb, with barely enough bittering to balance it. It ended up tasting more like a 30 IBU beer (calculated at 27 by Beersmith, though). That's a huge difference. It was a high OG/low IBU beer.

But, if you do the same exact thing with an APA or a higher IBU beer to begin with, a difference of 10 IBUs is really not much. That's why I'm thinking it was SO noticeable in that beer, but not other beers that BBR did or even in my other more highly hopped beers. Does that make sense?

I've always heard that late extract (or full boil) give about 20% greater hops utilization. (It's not linear, but a decent guestimate). I would say that could be true, based on my experiences. Now, the WHY is the big question. I love your theories, and I'm very interested in following this subject. Thanks for all of your input on this.

I'm glad we have some conversation flowing on this... my initial thought is seeming to hash itself out into something other people have encountered and have thoughts on.

Love this forum -- why the hell haven't I subscribed yet?

Very interesting - I'll have to read up on those articles. I guess that I've always believed BeerSmith was accurate because any beer that I brewed using their late add formula was right on with regards to hoppiness.

Yoop- Do you think it could have anything to do with the caramelization of sugars in full extract vs late extract boils. More surgar has time to caramelization and become unformentable, leaving a greater residual sweetness? Thus the IBU would have a more difficult time of staning out.

SumnerH said:

Beersmith (and pretty much all homebrewing software) gets this wrong pretty dramatically. The formulas used by software are based on the old, mistaken belief that hop utilization is affected by wort gravity (pretty much all home brewing texts convey that myth too, though I'd expect it to be corrected in forthcoming additions of How to Brew and others).

Hop utilization is independent of wort gravity, and the impact (if any) of late extract addition on IBUs is much, much smaller than what software will calculate.

Click to expand...

I listened to the basic brewing podcast etc...

So, if I'm just getting started using Beersmith and am doing a partial mash/boil, should I just use the program as if I'm boiling the full volume and forget all the high gravity wort hop utilization stuff? It seems like some people have different opinions based on anecdotal evidence and brewing science standard practices, but what's the final word?

Don't forget a good portion of your sense of taste is in your nose. If you dont believe me try sipping a beer while holding your nose. I bet the "aroma" hops additions also have something to do with it.

An allied question: Just bought my first ingredients kit, it's a Brewer's Best kit based on a partial (2.5 gallon) boil. The instructions say if the boil volume is higher the biterness will be higher. Seems counter intuitive, not sure whether they got it backwards or there's something fundamental I don't understand. To me, if I brew Tea using 3 OZ of dried tea and 16 OZ of water, I get tea. If I brew Tea using 3 OZ of tea and 1 gallon of water, I get really weak tea. Not true for Hops?

william_shakes_beer said:

An allied question: Just bought my first ingredients kit, it's a Brewer's Best kit based on a partial (2.5 gallon) boil. The instructions say if the boil volume is higher the biterness will be higher. Seems counter intuitive, not sure whether they got it backwards or there's something fundamental I don't understand. To me, if I brew Tea using 3 OZ of dried tea and 16 OZ of water, I get tea. If I brew Tea using 3 OZ of tea and 1 gallon of water, I get really weak tea. Not true for Hops?

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It has more to do with the ph than the amount of water. Hops have a higher utilization at higher PH levels. When you add extract to water it lowers the PH. Also at a higher PH the hops release other chemicals more easily, some of which can make the beer more astringent.

Haven't the "experts" all changed their mind on this recently and now say it's not gravity at all but break material that affects hop utilization?

DustBow said:

Haven't the "experts" all changed their mind on this recently and now say it's not gravity at all but break material that affects hop utilization?

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I don't know about "all", but many have. See my first post in the thread for links.

I think the perceived improvement of hop utilization may just fall into the category with marijuana or honey. As scientists we can observe these things in great detail but the difference lies on a level that is not possible to mimic or quantify.

ptp1267 said:

I think the perceived improvement of hop utilization may just fall into the category with marijuana or honey. As scientists we can observe these things in great detail but the difference lies on a level that is not possible to mimic or quantify.

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The BBR test did a blind taste test of the 3; no quantification, just human perception. It's worth a listen.

Very interesting info here. I just recently read Palmer's book and had been taking it as gospel, so it's nice to get the fresh perspective. It may also help explain why my IBU calculations have diverged from what I've seen in other places. I've been calculating using Tinseth's formula with Excel, but also have the iBrewMaster app on my phone. On my last batch I came up with 37.2 IBU while iBrewMaster came up with 55.5. Does anyone know what formulas that particular app uses?

The takeaway for me is to decide on one formula and stick with it in order to be able to draw apples to apples comparisons from batch to batch. Or if you are looking at the IBUs for a particular recipe, then also know what formula was used to calculate that particular value.

Quick question about LA extract.

If you add it with 15 minutes left in the boil, wouldn't that cause the water to cool down and stop boiling? In this case, would you add aroma/finishing hops at this time when the water is not boiling, or would you wait for the water to boil up again and then resume your 60 minute boil time clock and add hops based on the actual time of boiling?

Thanks!

I usually stop my clock. Then once I resume boil in 2-3 minutes, I add my 15 minute additions.

Its for that reason that I know do my late LME addition at flameout. It allows me to kill the burner without having to relight it, and I don't worry about scorching it because the flame is done with and won't be put back on the kettle. Haven't had any problems yet, and I am always down for MORE percieved bitterness.

Thanks guys! I did a Late Extract Addition to a Red Ale last week and didn't know the answer to this question so I just did it at flameout.

So confused, time to RDWDAHB...I just had someone say something to me on my last thread telling me that ABV effects hop utilization, along with doing a full boil. Now thinking that I have learned from that, thinking its the best method, I come to this thread to find different.

I have done 6 partial boil extract batches and have been very satisfied with my results. However, I haven't done a beer yet where I am really focused on upping IBU's or bitterness.

I guess what I am asking is if these methods are really ONLY effective for brewing the more bitter beer. Or if it actually improves the overall, flavor of the beer. Many don't want their Hefes or Commons on the bitter side, especially if they are beers that are reflecting fruit aromas/flavors (e.g. Pumpkin ale, Apricot Hefe, etc.). My first Hefe was brown, when it should have been more of a gold color and a late extract add might have helped this, but if it meant my beer being more bitter, it might have not been appropriate for the the beer I was trying to create.

I'm Babbling a little but my head is spinning a bit over this now.

If it were me I would probably only do it for hoppier beers, which luckily for me right now, is literally all I brew. I on an IPA kick for 4 or 5 in a row right now, CDA's, IPA's, IIPA's etc. where if I can get some extra bitterness, whether percieved or actual, is ALWAYS useful.

For a less hoppier brew, I think I would try to increase my boil size (it takes some attention and doing, but I can keep 4 gallons at a boil in a 5 gallon pot) and maybe use all the extract up front. I guess you'd have to way out how you feel about color/bitterness.