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-   -   hop utilization vs adding LME late (http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/hop-utilization-vs-adding-lme-late-247665/)

ArcLight 05-25-2011 08:22 PM
hop utilization vs adding LME late
 
Why is it necessary to add a lot of the LME at the start of the boil, as opposed to boiling the hops and adding the LME later?

The one major difference is a low gravity wort will allow more of the Hops Alpha acids to disolve.

Can't one just boil the hops in water for lets say 30 minutes, then add the LME, boil another 5 and be done with it. (Yes - there are also the flavoring and aroma hops, they can be boiled in paralelle in another pot.

Or am I misisng something?

unionrdr 05-25-2011 08:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcLight (Post 2953043)
Why is it necessary to add a lot of the LME at the start of the boil, as opposed to boiling the hops and adding the LME later?

The one major difference is a low gravity wort will allow more of the Hops Alpha acids to disolve.

Can't one just boil the hops in water for lets say 30 minutes, then add the LME, boil another 5 and be done with it. (Yes - there are also the flavoring and aroma hops, they can be boiled in paralelle in another pot.

Or am I misisng something?
From my wanderings in the brewing world,I found "hop teas" aren't that bad for aroma/flavor additions in the BK before adding DME/LME,or pre-hopped malts. Say,15 mins or so. But the bittering side of those additions are best done in a light malt wort to absorb the Alpha Acids better. And boy,does it ever work! And you don't need to boil aroma/flavor hops in another pot. I use plain DME's in my brews,so I boil 2.5G of water,add the 3lbs of DME & stir. Then 1oz hops at 20mins (for a little extra bittering),.5oz hops at 10mins. Then 10 mins under a lid at flame out with the last .5oz.
I add the pre-hopped LME can after that steep to keep it from getting darkened. At 17 days,I've got an ale that's about the color of a pilsner or Kolsh,with a wee amber blush. Not to mention,5.3%ABV as of today.:rockin:

Yooper 05-25-2011 08:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcLight (Post 2953043)
Why is it necessary to add a lot of the LME at the start of the boil, as opposed to boiling the hops and adding the LME later?

The one major difference is a low gravity wort will allow more of the Hops Alpha acids to disolve.

Can't one just boil the hops in water for lets say 30 minutes, then add the LME, boil another 5 and be done with it. (Yes - there are also the flavoring and aroma hops, they can be boiled in paralelle in another pot.

Or am I misisng something?
Because of the rate of the hops oils utilization. A 30 minute boil isn't really enough time to get the oils fully isomerized. You'll get far less IBUs out of a 30 minute boil than a 60 minute boil.

It's not necessary to add the LME at the start of the boil, and I would recommend adding the bulk of it at the end of the boil.

unionrdr 05-25-2011 09:24 PM
I'm noticing that DME doesn't change color like LME does. But the three pounds I used in 2.5G of water did help make a nice little extra bittering with the US Perle at 20mins. The Czech Saaz .5oz at 10,& -10. The total bittering (with the cooper's OS draught can added) was a little sharp in today's hydrometer test at 17 days,though. I'll give it 1 more week until I test it again to clean up a bit more. But I do think this part addition of extract at the beginning with 3 hop additions has merit. We'll know in 4 weeks or so.

david_42 05-25-2011 10:26 PM
Quote:
The one major difference is a low gravity wort will allow more of the Hops Alpha acids to disolve.
This has been proven to be wrong. The rate at which alpha acids dissolve and the maximum concentration turn out to be related to the concentrate of alpha acids. Since high AA beers are almost always high ABV beers, the mistake was difficult to spot.

Boil time is the key, as yooper said.

ArcLight 05-25-2011 11:05 PM
>>This has been proven to be wrong. The rate at which alpha acids dissolve and the maximum concentration turn out to be related to the concentrate of alpha acids. Since high AA beers are almost always high ABV beers, the mistake was difficult to spot.


OK - this is good to know. Thank you all for responding, I appreciate your help and knowledge.

unionrdr 05-26-2011 05:40 PM
I hope we helped rather than confounded. But,as I said,hop tea is ok,part DME add for hop additions seems to be better so far. And yes,AA% obviously comes into play,but how much,when,& added to what seems to be part of the equation as well. From what my own experiences indicate thus far,anyway. At least,our perception of them...:drunk::tank::cross:

smyrnaquince 05-26-2011 07:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooper (Post 2953159)
Because of the rate of the hops oils utilization. A 30 minute boil isn't really enough time to get the oils fully isomerized. You'll get far less IBUs out of a 30 minute boil than a 60 minute boil.

It's not necessary to add the LME at the start of the boil, and I would recommend adding the bulk of it at the end of the boil.
Let's say I have an extract recipe that uses 2 cans of LME. If I put in the hops at 60 minutes, plus one can of LME (where the recipe calls for both), then add the second can of LME at 5 minutes along with the final hop addition, would that be better/worse/the same as adding all the LME at the beginning as called for in the original recipe?

Also, I assume that adding the second can would cool the wort and kill the boil. If so, should I wait for the wort to come back to a boil before adding the final hops and timing the last 5 minutes of the boil?

Would I have to make any other adjustments (hop quantities, hop addition time, boiling time, etc.?

emacgee 05-26-2011 08:06 PM
I feel like you'll want to boil your extract for the full 60 minutes to utilize the hot break as well as the head retaining properties of your hops.

Yooper 05-26-2011 08:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by emacgee (Post 2956884)
I feel like you'll want to boil your extract for the full 60 minutes to utilize the hot break as well as the head retaining properties of your hops.

LME doesn't need a hot break- or even a boil at all, for that matter, since it's already been processed by the manufacturer. It has nothing to do with head retention from the hops (?) :drunk:


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