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Old 07-04-2010, 05:49 PM   #11
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We need to put this, "squeezing the grain bag" rote answer, brewer's myth aside., It is not true.

There's no reason not to squeeze.....that's another old brewer's myth that has been misunderstood...and has been shot down..But if often just get's repeated as ROTE without anyone stopping to look beyond the just repeating the warning...

Read this http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/do-you-squeeze-bag-biab-177051/?highlight=squeeze

And this.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/squeezing-grain-bag-bad-175179/?highlight=squeeze

From Aussie Homebrewer.com

Quote:
Tannins And Astringency

If you are worried about squeezing your bag too much or crushing too fine, relax! Astringent beers do not come from finely crushed or squeezed husks but come rather from a combination of high temperatures and high pH. These conditions pull the polyhenols out of the husk. The higher your pH and the higher temperature you expose your grain to, the worse the problem becomes. Any brewer, traditional or BIAB, should never let these conditions arrive. If you do allow these conditions to arrive, then you will find yourself in exactly the same position as a traditional brewer. Many commercial breweries actually hammer mill their grain to powder for use in mash filter systems because they have control of their pH and temperatures. This control (and obviously expensive complex equipment) allows them non-astringent beers and “into kettle,” efficiencies of over 100%.
As long as you keep your steeping temps below 170, you won't be producing those supposed tannins that folks blindly say you would be squeezing out.

1) If your PH is off, or your steeping/mashing temp is above 170, your beer will extract tanins from the husks whether you squeeze or not

2) If your PH is ok, and your temps were below 170, squeeze away!

There's been some tests that have disproved the whole "don't squeeze the grain bag, because you will leech tannins" idea. I think there's even been a couple experiments on here detailed in threads. I think it's been pretty well shot down as one of those "old school" beliefs, that turn out to have little effect.

In fact if you are doing AG "Brew in a Bag" you are encouraged to squeeze the grain bag. They even showed it on basic brewing recently, the took a ladder with a hook attached, hung the grain bag, and twisted the hell out of it to drain every ounce of precious wort out of bag of grain.

This should launch as an mp-4

http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbv01-16-10cornpils.mp4

So is that's the case, that it is "OK" to do in AG Brew in the bag, then why would it really be bad in extract with grains brewing?

I wouldn't worry about it.

From BYO, MR Wizard;

Quote:
The two most influential factors affecting the extraction of tannins from malt into wort are pH and temperature. All-grain brewers are very careful not to allow wort pH to reach more than about pH 6 during sparging because tannin extraction increases with pH. In all-grain brewing wort pH typically rises during the last stages of wort collection and is one of the factors letting the brewer know that wort collection should be stopped.....

Temperature also affects tannin extraction. This relationship is pretty simple. If you don’t want to run the risk of getting too much tannin in your wort, keep the temperature just below 170° F.

This is where the answer to your last question begins. You ask whether steeping and sparging released "unwanted tannins" in your beer. For starters, all beer contains tannins. Some tannins are implicated in haze and some lend astringent flavors to beer.

The type most homebrewers are concerned about are those affecting flavor. In any case, it is up to the brewer to decide if the level of tannins in their beer is too high. The (in)famous decoction mash is frequently recommended when a brewer is in search of more malt flavor. Decoction mashes boil malt and — among analytical brewers who are not afraid of rocking the boat with unpopular ideas — are known to increase the astringent character associated with tannins. In general I wouldn’t consider 170° F dangerously high with respect to tannin extraction. However, if you believe your beers may suffer because of too much astringency, consider adjusting your steep pH and lowering the temperature a few degrees.
So quit repeating this urban legend, gang. All of a sudden it is OK to squeeze for brew in a bag.....so how is it different really, from extract with grains??? Think on it before you regurgitate the same old hackneyed answers next time, gang.



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Old 07-05-2010, 02:59 PM   #12
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Revvy, The Sept. issue2009 VOL 15 NO 5 Brew Your Own has an article in it "help me Nr. Wizard" by Ashton Lewis, that emphatically states NOT to squeeze the grain bag. It is the issue with the airlocks on the cover, page 15.

However, the reason was NOT astringency and tannins, but haze forming trub, grain particles and maybe, possible polyphenol extraction. He suggests the proper technique to avoid any of these possible outcomes is to rinse instead of squeeze.

After thinking this over, I believe that rinsing is the first best way to do it, but squeezing is NOT the absolute no-no we have been told.


Pez.



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Old 07-05-2010, 11:30 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revvy View Post
We need to put this, "squeezing the grain bag" rote answer, brewer's myth aside., It is not true.


So quit repeating this urban legend, gang. All of a sudden it is OK to squeeze for brew in a bag.....so how is it different really, from extract with grains??? Think on it before you regurgitate the same old hackneyed answers next time, gang.

I don't know for 100% certainty one way or another, but I'm an AG brewer and I don't squeeze my grains to get more wort out. The big breweries don't either. If not, why not? They could definitely get more wort out if they did. Must be a reason.

I don't think I'm "regurgitating the same old hackneyed answers", but what do I know? I'm just a lowly brewer.
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Old 07-06-2010, 12:05 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by YooperBrew View Post
The big breweries don't either.
... Except the ones that do.
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Old 07-06-2010, 01:53 AM   #15
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... Except the ones that do.
good point! The ones I've been to don't. I can only speak for the ones I'm familiar with. Blanket statements aren't always true.
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Old 07-06-2010, 03:32 AM   #16
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I liken it to a tea bag. If you brew the tea at the right temp for the right amount of time you can squeeze the bag and get a bit more properly brewed tea. If it sits too long or too hot and you squeeze you wind up with a poorer tasting cup of tea.

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Old 07-06-2010, 02:04 PM   #17
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I once asked this question to the tech support folks at Briess and they indicated that squeezing the grains will not add additional tannins to the wort. FWIW. So, if you really need that extra 2 cups of liquid to make your extract brew the talk of the town, squeeze your sack like it owes you money.

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Old 07-06-2010, 07:16 PM   #18
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squeeze your sack like it owes you money.
Dibs!
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:17 PM   #19
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Of course, the flip side of all this is what exactly do you GAIN by squeezing instead of rinsing, letting it drip, or none of the above?

A tiny extra bit of color?? better flavor??? Can it be noticed??

It sems to me that these issues should be adressed by volume and temperature of the steep water instead of manipulation of the grain bag.

Pez.


EDIT - It would be kinda neat to split a wort into two pots, Then squeeze the bejeezus out of the grain bag into one of them and taste test the final beers.

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Old 07-06-2010, 10:23 PM   #20
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As a BIAB brewer, I do squeeze the grain bag. There is no way that it will drain as much without the squeeze. No deleterious effects to report....



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