Brewing a Hefeweizen

I'm supposed to receive a kit of Hank's Hefeweizen from Midwest today. I have a couple of questions:

1) This is the first time I'm using a Wyeast Propogator. I have used the Activator in the past and made a starter as follows: 20 oz water, 1/2 c dme, pinch of yeast nutrient - made 24 hours prior to pitching. Do I need to make this starter earlier, like 2 or 3 days prior to pitching? It comes with this yeast: Weihenstephan Weizen Wyeast Propagator 3068

2) Is there anything special I should do with this type of beer? I've heard I should try to keep the temp at 68 during primary, but that's somewhat of a challenge, as it will either be warmer (upstairs ~ 71) or cooler (downstairs (low 60s). If I had to be slightly warmer or slightly cooler, which is probably better?

I've made 4 batches of extract so far, and they seem to be improving each time. This is my first hefeweizen and I'm not familiar with the style, so any advice is great.

Thanks

1)Unless your making a "Big" Hefe you shouldn't need a starter but if you want to make one for the hell of it...24 hours prior should be fine.

2)Fermenting a Hefe at 68 will give you the clove nose and 70-72 73ish will give you the Fruity Bannana nose.

Thanks - I think the SG is supposed to be 1.048, so nothing big. I'm making this for my wife, so I'll opt for the fruity bananna side since she'd prefer that. Upstairs it is.

I'm just going off the Wyeast web site that states the Propagator needs to be in a starter.

Another question - the instructions on the Wyeast site say I need to make a 1L starter. I only have a 1L flask, so that's not really feasible. Do you think the 20 oz starter I've been making will suffice? I've never used the propogator, only the activator packs, which are designed to be pitched directly anyways.

A propagator pack requires a starter, I would even consider stepping it up once if it were me.

markwarren66 said:

Thanks - I think the SG is supposed to be 1.048, so nothing big. I'm making this for my wife, so I'll opt for the fruity bananna side since she'd prefer that. Upstairs it is.

I'm just going off the Wyeast web site that states the Propagator needs to be in a starter.

Another question - the instructions on the Wyeast site say I need to make a 1L starter. I only have a 1L flask, so that's not really feasible. Do you think the 20 oz starter I've been making will suffice? I've never used the propogator, only the activator packs, which are designed to be pitched directly anyways.

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I dont see any reason your starter wont work, there is still food in there for the yeast to eat. You should be fine Happy Brewing.

bradsul said:

A propagator pack requires a starter, I would even consider stepping it up once if it were me.

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Could you please explain the stepping up process? Or just point me to a link somewhere.

Thanks

Stepping up is just adding more fermentables to the starter. It causes another growth phase in the yeast giving you even more. Sounds like you'd need a larger container before you could do that.

bradsul said:

Stepping up is just adding more fermentables to the starter. It causes another growth phase in the yeast giving you even more. Sounds like you'd need a larger container before you could do that.

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I see. I checked Palmer's book and he talks about using a 1/2 gallon juice container or something similar.

Let's say I started by making a 20 oz starter and wanted to step it up. Could I transfer the wort to the sanitized juice bottle and then just boil up another 20 oz of water and 1/2 c dme, and then add that to the wort? Or do I need to try and remove the existing wort, leaving the yeast?

I realize I should get a larger flask, but I also read about making 1/2 gallon + starters, so it seems like a plastic bottle or something would work. I guess I just don't know the transfer process / steps / order, etc.

Thanks

I use 4L (gallon) sized glass jugs for mine. I don't typically decant the previous wort when I step up because I don't want to remove any of the yeast currently in suspension. Once the starter is finished I'll put it in the fridge for 24 hours to flocculate as much yeast as I can and then carefully decant the starter liquid.

You want to aerate heavily when you add fermentables to the starter so I don't like adding all that off-tasting beer to my batch.

The process you describe would work fine, just make sure you shake it up before transferring to the larger container so you don't leave any sediment (yeast) behind.

Thanks Brad - I'll put a 1 gal glass container on my shopping list. I want to brew the hefeweizen this weekend, so I'll skip the step-up this time. Probably try it when I do a higher gravity beer.

Please keep it slightly cooler. This yeast goes crazy and raises the temperature of the beer well above ambient air temperatures. I don't want anyone's weizen up near 80. Hell, I would even toss it in a water bath in the basement.

The biggest reason for making a starter is to allow dry yeast cells to rehydrate. Especially in high gravity wort, dried yeast cells might not be able to pull in enough water to activate themselves. The other is to allow a yeast to propagate itself so that you're not under-pitching. Another thing to consider is doing this in 2 batches - 1/2 of the yeast in 2 containers.

HTH,

M.

Stepping up doesn't require a larger container (unless you start with a small container)...you're just adding more malt (and some water) to the already kreusened starter so it'll produce more yeast...

morrighu said:

The biggest reason for making a starter is to allow dry yeast cells to rehydrate. Especially in high gravity wort, dried yeast cells might not be able to pull in enough water to activate themselves...

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You actually don't want to do a starter for a dried yeast. You want to rehydrate the yeast with warm water so that the cells reconstitute properly, I can't remember the technical details (something about osmotic pressure or something ) but this can't happen properly in a sugar solution so you end up with less healthy yeast.

The other problem with making a starter for a dry yeast is that you are massively under-pitching and it will cause distress to the yeast as well. If you need a larger concentration of cells, it's best just to use a second package - which is cheaper than the DME for the starter anyway.

For liquid yeast, definitely always make a starter. Your beer will thank you.

I had an american wheat ale yeast a few weeks ago. It took almost 72 hours to start (without a starter) and then it went crazy. I would look at a bung with a 1.25 inch hose coming out of it into a bucket. I had a belgian wit in the past that blew the top off of a plastic pail.

I just bottled a hefe that was a little warmer, probably in the 75-78 range. It is a little bit banana-y/fruity for my tastes (but not bad). It might mellow out in a week or two though. I think at around 70-71, you should be pretty good, esp. if you are making it for the wife.

I'm a novice though, so take that with a grain of salt.

The low 60s is perfect for hefeweizens. you'll still get some banana flavor even at 60°F, and it will have a smoother flavor, not the crazy esters you get in the 70s.

the yeast can handle that temp, too. no prob. plus, as mentioned earlier, your temp will raise a few degrees above ambient when it's fermenting.

bradsul said:

I use 4L (gallon) sized glass jugs for mine. I don't typically decant the previous wort when I step up because I don't want to remove any of the yeast currently in suspension. Once the starter is finished I'll put it in the fridge for 24 hours to flocculate as much yeast as I can and then carefully decant the starter liquid.

You want to aerate heavily when you add fermentables to the starter so I don't like adding all that off-tasting beer to my batch.

The process you describe would work fine, just make sure you shake it up before transferring to the larger container so you don't leave any sediment (yeast) behind.

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So if you decant all of the starter liquid, how do you get the yeast cake out of the glass jug? Shake it up with sanitized water?

blacklab said:

So if you decant all of the starter liquid, how do you get the yeast cake out of the glass jug? Shake it up with sanitized water?

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I leave just enough to swirl up the yeast, a tiny amount like that won't make a difference in the main batch flavour. You could also use some boiled and cooled water. I've also heard of running some of your chilled wort into the starter container and using that to swirl up the yeast for pitching.

IMHO, that violates a lot of what I know about single celled organisms and rehydrating things. I'll explain to why I think it's not accurate and let you guys pick it apart.

I've been baking longer than I've been brewing and I have to tell you that in baking, you don't rehydrate yeast in plain water because that can kill your yeast. Even in baking, you rehydrate your yeast in sugar water. The normal solution is 1 teaspoon of table sugar in 1/4 cup of water. That's 1 teaspoon sugar to 12 teaspoons of water. If you do the math on it, that's a fairly high gravity solution.

Basic biology says that too much water can make cells pop. That's why you have isotonic solutions. The names for what we're discussing are technically isotonic, hypertonic, and hypotonic. Hypertonic would be your high gravity worts for big beers. Hypotonic would be plain water. What you want is a solution that's approximately isotonic. This allows the dehydrated cells to pull in fluids at a rate they can manage. Too much of a concentration of water and they can become flooded and explode. Anyone who's ever dropped a contact into water and found later will understand what I'm talking about.

Just my 2 cents,

M.

morrighu said:

IMHO, that violates a lot of what I know about single celled organisms and rehydrating things. I'll explain to why I think it's not accurate and let you guys pick it apart.

I've been baking longer than I've been brewing and I have to tell you that in baking, you don't rehydrate yeast in plain water because that can kill your yeast. Even in baking, you rehydrate your yeast in sugar water. The normal solution is 1 teaspoon of table sugar in 1/4 cup of water. That's 1 teaspoon sugar to 12 teaspoons of water. If you do the math on it, that's a fairly high gravity solution.

Basic biology says that too much water can make cells pop. That's why you have isotonic solutions. The names for what we're discussing are technically isotonic, hypertonic, and hypotonic. Hypertonic would be your high gravity worts for big beers. Hypotonic would be plain water. What you want is a solution that's approximately isotonic. This allows the dehydrated cells to pull in fluids at a rate they can manage. Too much of a concentration of water and they can become flooded and explode. Anyone who's ever dropped a contact into water and found later will understand what I'm talking about.

Just my 2 cents,

M.

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Well then I do not understand why the beer yeast mfg's say to use 85F to 90F water and not to sprinkle it in the wort. These 2 yeasts must have some difference in their properties.

Update -

I made a starter on Friday night with 20 oz water and 1/4 cup dme and 1/4 tsp nutrient. Added yeast from swollen propagator. Brewed batch up on Sunday and pitched yeast. Put primary in basement on table where ambient temp is 63-64. Active fermentation began overnight and the temp on my fermometer was 72. I checked it again yesterday and there was very active airlock activity. I went down this morning to check again, and it looks like I had some blowoff take place. The 3 piece airlock is bubbling, but instead of sanitizer it is now filled with foamy wort, plus a small amount (few Tbls) spilled off the top.

I'm kind of surprised that this happened after 48+ hours, but I'm new to this. I thought blowoff would take place earlier.

Do I need to do anything? Will this possibly get worse? The carboy cap and airlock were still secure, so nothing popped off or anything. I plan on racking to a secondary around 1 week from today, just because that's when I'll have time to do so.

Thanks

markwarren66 said:

Do I need to do anything? Will this possibly get worse? The carboy cap and airlock were still secure, so nothing popped off or anything. I plan on racking to a secondary around 1 week from today, just because that's when I'll have time to do so.

Thanks

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Your sanitary barrier has been compromised.
Pull the bung and airlock off and clean them. Check to see if the krauzen is still high. If so, you may want to rig a blowoff tube. If not, then just replace with newly cleaned and sanitized airlock (try filling it with cheap vodka....better than water. Bad stuff hates vodka).

Ok, thanks. I just replaced the airlock with a new, sanitized one. The kreusen is still high, but not in the narrow part of the fermenter, so perhaps it has subsided and will continue to lower. It has been over 48 hours since active fermentation began.

Last question - I normally keg my beer. Would this type benefit from bottling? In order to have more yeast in suspension, or will that happen either way.

If you're going to drink it fairly quickly you can certainly keg it. You'll have to pull the keg out occasionally to re-suspend the yeast but that isn't a big deal. Personally I like to bottle my hefe's just because serving with the proper amount of yeast is easier, plus since I have only a single body regulator I can't get the higher level of carbonation in the keg that is more appropriate to the style.

bradsul said:

If you're going to drink it fairly quickly you can certainly keg it. You'll have to pull the keg out occasionally to re-suspend the yeast but that isn't a big deal. Personally I like to bottle my hefe's just because serving with the proper amount of yeast is easier, plus since I have only a single body regulator I can't get the higher level of carbonation in the keg that is more appropriate to the style.

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Ok, so that wasn't my last question

This won't get drank quickly, so I will bottle. I have never bottled, just decided to keg when I started. I understand the bottling process, but do I need to do anything different to obtain the high carbonation levels a hefe should be served at? I plan to have this in a secondary for 4-6 weeks and then bottle. Should I leave it in the bottle more than 2-3 weeks prior to drinking?

For a hefe I think you should skip the secondary and go straight to bottles, unless you are shooting for a crystalweizen...

I agree, just go right to bottles, no secondary (obviously be sure fermentation is complete first). Secondary will drop too much yeast out of the beer and you don't want that to happen. 3 weeks should have the carbonation fully done and then you can start drinking. Hefe's are best young so no worry about green flavours or aging.

All you need to do to get the extra carbonation is to bump up the priming sugar a bit. How much depends on how much beer you're bottling, what temperature it will condition at and how much carbonation you're shooting for. There are calculators online that can help you figure all that out (or your brewing software can too).

Sorry to resurrect an older thread but I also ordered this from Midwest today. My question is whether anyone has brewed this recipe before and if so, what do you think of it?

never tried it, but if you post the recipe i can tell you whether it is good or not

you can't really go wrong with a hefeweizen

Sorry, I should know to post the recipe by now... It's an extract recipe from Midwest supply

"Hank’s Hefe Weizen: There once was a homebrewer named Hank. He liked to brew Hefe Wiezens. He gave me a bottle of his favorite recipe one day, a traditional Hefe Weizen. I drank it. I liked it. I brewed it. Now it’s your turn to brew the legend of Hank. Wyeast is recommended for best results. Our ingredients for this recipe include: 6 lbs. Wheat liquid malt extract, 1 lb. of Light DME, 8 oz. Carapils specialty grains, 1 oz. oz. bittering hops, yeast, priming sugar and a grain bag."

Straight from Midwest website. Thanks again.

looks like a pretty standard extract hefeweizen. like i said, you can't go wrong!

Sounds about like the hefe I bottled yesterday, my first as well. Two pieces of advice:

1)Look into washing the yeast, as you'll probably want to make more (I already do) for the summer and $8 a batch pretty much sucks

2)Ferment in the basement. I did mine in a water bath in the low 60's and still got lots of 'nanner out of it, with the clove to balance, at least at bottling time

The hydrometer sample was sooooo smooth, and unique compared to most everything I have drank. This one is a keeper, and at 3-4 weeks from brew day to glass it's something that I'll easily have on hand. Plus, it's meant to be drank with the yeast. This means I can pack the cooler for kayak floats down the river and not have to worry about dropping my glass 3/4 of the way through the trip.

morrighu said:

IMHO, that violates a lot of what I know about single celled organisms and rehydrating things. I'll explain to why I think it's not accurate and let you guys pick it apart.

I've been baking longer than I've been brewing and I have to tell you that in baking, you don't rehydrate yeast in plain water because that can kill your yeast. Even in baking, you rehydrate your yeast in sugar water. The normal solution is 1 teaspoon of table sugar in 1/4 cup of water. That's 1 teaspoon sugar to 12 teaspoons of water. If you do the math on it, that's a fairly high gravity solution.

Basic biology says that too much water can make cells pop. That's why you have isotonic solutions. The names for what we're discussing are technically isotonic, hypertonic, and hypotonic. Hypertonic would be your high gravity worts for big beers. Hypotonic would be plain water. What you want is a solution that's approximately isotonic. This allows the dehydrated cells to pull in fluids at a rate they can manage. Too much of a concentration of water and they can become flooded and explode. Anyone who's ever dropped a contact into water and found later will understand what I'm talking about.

Just my 2 cents,

M.

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Since we resurrected this thread I'll address the yeast exploding thing....

Hyper/Hypo/Iso tonicity are relative terms to describe amount of solute in solution. A specific liquid is not inherently hypertonic or hypotonic. It is what it is and the terms are used to compare two differing solutions.

The issue comes up with injecting yeast into a hypotonic solution. In this case, the free water in the hypotonic solution will attempt to naturally equilibrate to the environment inside the yeast cell (which is hypertonic compared to the original solution). If there is a permeable barrier for this to occur, then the yeast cells would literally overfill with this free water and burst. Fortunately for yeasts (and plant cells), they have nice thick cell walls than afford them two luxuries. First they selectively do not allow unlimited osmotic movement of free water. Only enough to satisfy the cellular demand. And second, the walls are tough and don't break easily to external environmental changes.

Thus, yeasts will not readily "explode" when placed in a hypotonic solution. This is why it is safe to "wash" reharvested yeast cells after your fermentation is completed and why it's safe to rehydrate yeast cells in water.

cuinrearview said:

1)Look into washing the yeast, as you'll probably want to make more (I already do) for the summer and $8 a batch pretty much sucks

2)Ferment in the basement. I did mine in a water bath in the low 60's and still got lots of 'nanner out of it, with the clove to balance, at least at bottling time

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1) That's something I haven't tried yet. I'm still a green noob (as opposed to just a noob...) so I have yet to wash yeast. In fact, I have yet to make a starter on anything. When I ordered this kit, I upgraded to the Wyeast Activator so that will something new for me.

2) My basement is about running a constant 65F this time of year, not low enough?

Thanks again.

i like mine in the low 60s as well, but mid to high 60s is good. you move into the 70s and you get the heavy, unpleasant phenolics. some people think you need to be in the 70s to get good banana flavor. those people are wrong