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Old 07-02-2013, 06:23 PM   #41
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Agreed, thanks. I have a friend who's getting into AG. I'll help him do a batch and see what I think. Now I'll let this thread get back to not nuking extract.

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Old 07-03-2013, 05:28 PM   #42
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If you are adding extract at flameout, you aren't getting a hot break (right?). Does this cause any issue/give any benefits?

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Old 07-03-2013, 05:43 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by logan3825 View Post
You don't need to do a 60m boil to get enough hop utilization. You just need a lot of hops. Read about hop bursting. I like to make hoppy beers by hop bursting.
I'd be careful about that line of thought... Hop utilization is not the purpose behind the 60 minute duration of the boil, but hop isomerization is. With a shorter boil (say, 30 minutes) you're not going to isomerize the hop oils to the same degree, so you won't get the same bittering effect. You'll get a little more of a flavor impact from your 30 minute "bittering" addition and a little less bittering, so you'd wind up having to increase the amount of hops used in order to get the same perceived bitterness while at the same time increasing that flavor impact. In the end, you'd use more hops and not get quite the same end result as you would have gotten from a 60 minute addition.
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Old 07-03-2013, 07:37 PM   #44
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How do you get a hot break if most of the extract is added at flameout? I thought the majority of proteins in the hot break come from the grains or extract with the hops only causing a small amount. If the extract never gets vigorously boiled it will be sanitized but the proteins won't have a chance to coagulate. Am I missing something?

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Old 07-03-2013, 08:05 PM   #45
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How do you get a hot break if most of the extract is added at flameout? I thought the majority of proteins in the hot break come from the grains or extract with the hops only causing a small amount. If the extract never gets vigorously boiled it will be sanitized but the proteins won't have a chance to coagulate. Am I missing something?
The extract LME, or DME, has already been through processing. I believe the hot break, has already occurred.

However, I'm not positive about this, so I'm waiting for Yooper to elaborate...
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Old 07-04-2013, 06:08 PM   #46
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I'd be careful about that line of thought... Hop utilization is not the purpose behind the 60 minute duration of the boil, but hop isomerization is. With a shorter boil (say, 30 minutes) you're not going to isomerize the hop oils to the same degree, so you won't get the same bittering effect. You'll get a little more of a flavor impact from your 30 minute "bittering" addition and a little less bittering, so you'd wind up having to increase the amount of hops used in order to get the same perceived bitterness while at the same time increasing that flavor impact. In the end, you'd use more hops and not get quite the same end result as you would have gotten from a 60 minute addition.
I am talking 20m boils. Of course you don't get as much bittering effect in a shorter boil. You have to use more hops to get as much bittering. In a shorter boil you don't boil off as much flavor and aroma but you can still get enough bitterness. I do 15m and shorter hop additions all the time. I believe hops between 60m and 20m are a waste. Sure they add something but not enough bittering, flavor or aroma to be worthwhile. Works great if you like hop aroma and flavor without the really high bitterness.
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Old 07-05-2013, 10:10 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by jperry View Post

The extract LME, or DME, has already been through processing. I believe the hot break, has already occurred.

However, I'm not positive about this, so I'm waiting for Yooper to elaborate...
I remember listening to a podcast interview of Bob Hansen from Briess, where he went over the entire process of producing extract. Before going to Briess to oversee production of their line of malt extracts, Bob was a brewmaster for a chain of brewpubs, one of which used extract as their primary source of fermentables. So this guy really knows a lot about extract.

Anyway, he said the wort goes through a full length boil before being concentrated. So you're correct about the hot break already occurring. He also mentioned that a big reason why extract beers can sometimes seem thin-bodied is because in a concentrated boil, whatever proteins that remain in the extract coagulate and boil off. Basically undergoing a second hot break. To avoid this, a full boil, or late extract additions, were required.

A good listen if you can find it.
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Old 07-05-2013, 05:45 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by logan3825 View Post
I am talking 20m boils. Of course you don't get as much bittering effect in a shorter boil. You have to use more hops to get as much bittering. In a shorter boil you don't boil off as much flavor and aroma but you can still get enough bitterness. I do 15m and shorter hop additions all the time. I believe hops between 60m and 20m are a waste. Sure they add something but not enough bittering, flavor or aroma to be worthwhile. Works great if you like hop aroma and flavor without the really high bitterness.
I think stratslinger was dead-on: short boils release the oils from the hops and give some bitterness; long boils release the oils AND ISOMERIZE THEM which creates MORE bitterness. You're not isomerizing the oils in a 15-20 minute boil which is why you need more hops to achieve the same perceived bitterness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_acid

"The degree of isomerization and the amount of bitter flavor produced by the addition of hops is highly dependent on the length of time the hops are boiled. Longer boil times will result in isomerization of more of the available alpha acids."
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Old 07-05-2013, 06:39 PM   #49
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I do partial mash recipes with a bit of extract. My rules for using extract are pretty simple...

1. Only use light, extra light, or wheat extract. Dark malt seems to be more sensitive to boiling, especially if you're not doing full boils. I have used amber and munich extracts in the past and they seem to have a slight caramelly burnt flavor and turn out darker than expected. If you do full boils, then this probably isn't an issue.

2. Only use DME. It will stay fresh longer than LME, and will be lighter than LME. Don't do a flameout addition with DME because it will take about 5 - 10 minutes to get all the clumps out. If you're doing 2lbs or less, I would do the late addition at 10 minutes. If you doing a lot of DME with 4+ lbs, I would add the extract at 15 minutes.

3. Use about half of your extract at the beginning or end of the boil if doing an extract/steeping grains recipe, or use all of your extract as a late addition if doing partial mash. You want may want some extract in there because it will help with hop utilization, but too much extract can hamper hop utilization, especially if you don't do full boils.

I just switched to 3 gallon batches so I am starting to use a lot less extract than before and I am doing (nearly) full boils so I'm not running into some of the problems I mentioned above. In the past I didn't 5 gallon batches with about 5lbs of grains, but now I'm doing 3 gallon batches, with about the same 5lbs of grains but I am only needing a pound or two of DME.

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Old 07-06-2013, 04:35 PM   #50
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This is good info. I had always wondered at the darkness of my extract beers and have tended to use light extracts for that very reason. My next batch will definitely involve a flame out addition of the last half or 2/3 of the extract. I had also forgotten about the isomerization of the hop oils. Thanks for the reminder.

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