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-   -   60 min. full boil Malt Extract vs. late addition Malt Extract - What Say You? (http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/60-min-full-boil-malt-extract-vs-late-addition-malt-extract-what-say-you-322187/)

Indianhead_Brewer 04-18-2012 05:02 PM

60 min. full boil Malt Extract vs. late addition Malt Extract - What Say You?
 
I have been trying to soak up as much brewing information as I can since I joined the forum a few weeks back and wow have I learned a lot from all the old threads I have been searching through.

In my constant search for more brewing information I went over to the Brewing Network and started downloading episodes of Brew Strong (thinking maybe I can absorb more brewing info while attempting to get some work done - yeah fat chance of me actually multitasking). The first episode I decided to listen to was one on "Brewing Kit Beer" (Broadcast: 11/29/2010) since that is the point I am at in my brewing career and figured maybe I would pick up some tips I hadn't picked up somewhere else.

Well lo and behold something new to me was discussed and I wasn't sure I heard it right.......enough so that I had to go back and listen again today. Jamil and JP seemed to be advocating not boiling your malt extract or at least not boiling it very much. Basically Jamil said "Don't double boil the stuff, it's already been boiled" in reference to boiling extracts. In thinking about that LME is already wort that has been boiled off the under a partial vacuum and DME is just extract that has been atomized and dried.....which means you don't need to cook the stuff again....at least not excessively. Jamil and JP basically said you just need to cook the stuff enough to dissolve and pasteurize....which doesn't take that long.

Overall their reasoning behind this was that this would potentially decrease the perceived "tang" that people sometimes think comes along with extracts as well as to provide lighter color and to avoid carmelization of the sugars (Maillard rxn) since this stuff has already been cooked once before.

So I am planning out a Sierra Nevada clone extract brew with specialty grains. Instead of following the kit directions I was gonna change things up to align with what I heard these guys talking about. So instead of adding all the malt extract at beginning of the boil I was thinking about doing the following.

- 0.5 lbs Briess Caramel 60 (Steep until 170 degrees, remove, bring to boil)
- 1 lb Briess Golden Light DME (60 minutes)
- 0.75 oz Chinook (60 min)
- 1 oz German Perle (20 min)
- 6 lbs Gold malt syrup (10 min or maybe even at flameout)
- 2 oz Cascade (0 min)

Does this seem OK, or am I just plain stupid?

Just to confirm what had been discussed by Jamil and JP I've searched around this forum and other places a bit and it seems like this would be OK.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/late-malt-addition-288333/
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/malt-extract-flameout-295888/
http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2008/02/20/better-beer-with-late-malt-extract-additions/

JonK331 04-18-2012 05:16 PM

That is a much better way to do it. I wouldn't even boil the DME but it wouldn't hurt if you do. A lot of the time the kit instructions are over simplified or outdated, most of the time it's better to ignore them.

Indianhead_Brewer 04-18-2012 05:45 PM

Thanks JonK331! Yeah the only thing right now I am trying to adjust/understand is the potential change in IBUs since according to Tinseth (http://www.realbeer.com/hops/) it seems like boiling hops in lower gravity liquids will increase the IBU's. Some of what I have seen has said to back off on the hops by 20-25% to adjust for this difference. I'm gonna have to think about that part of it a bit more.

Yooper 04-18-2012 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indianhead_Brewer (Post 4006006)
Thanks JonK331! Yeah the only thing right now I am trying to adjust/understand is the potential change in IBUs since according to Tinseth (http://www.realbeer.com/hops/) it seems like boiling hops in lower gravity liquids will increase the IBU's. Some of what I have seen has said to back off on the hops by 20-25% to adjust for this difference. I'm gonna have to think about that part of it a bit more.

Ah, but that has been disproven in the last couple of years. Hops utilization is independent of boil gravity, according to John Palmer and he admits that in the past in How To Brew he "got it wrong".

But here is my experience, for what it's worth. In a beer with, say, 35 IBUs I haven't noticed much of a change at all, and even if there is a small change in IBUs, the human tongue really can't notice a difference of 5 IBUs.

But when I did a 15 IBU beer and did a late addition of the extract (and a full boil after that), the beer was perceptibly more bitter. When I calculated it with software on the Tinseth scale, it showed the IBUs jumping for 15 to 27 IBUs and it actually tasted like that. After the beer aged a few weeks, though, it tasted like the original beer.

When I mentioned this to John Palmer, he said something like "Hops utilization is independent of wort gravity, but break material may impact the utilization."

In any case, since then (about 2006 or so), I've been suggesting that for very low IBU beers where a difference of IBUs may be more noticeable, lowering the bittering hops by 15-20% may not be a bad idea. In other beers, it would not be nearly as critical and perhaps a difference of 8-10 IBUs would be less significant anyway.

ryno84 04-18-2012 06:26 PM

I have been confused over this debate as well. I have read threads on here about late addition extract and thought this is what I should do. But then when I picked up my last kit at MoreBeer (which is my LHBS), they told me I should be boiling the extract for the full 60 minutes. He admitted I didn't have to, but that he recommended it.

So, now I am more confused as ever. I guess there are just two theories on the matter. I figure I will have to try out both and see if there is a difference. Of course, making changes to the hops schedule because of the hops utilization part is really over my head.

Indianhead_Brewer 04-18-2012 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yooper (Post 4006067)
Ah, but that has been disproven in the last couple of years. Hops utilization is independent of boil gravity, according to John Palmer and he admits that in the past in How To Brew he "got it wrong".

But here is my experience, for what it's worth. In a beer with, say, 35 IBUs I haven't noticed much of a change at all, and even if there is a small change in IBUs, the human tongue really can't notice a difference of 5 IBUs.

But when I did a 15 IBU beer and did a late addition of the extract (and a full boil after that), the beer was perceptibly more bitter. When I calculated it with software on the Tinseth scale, it showed the IBUs jumping for 15 to 27 IBUs and it actually tasted like that. After the beer aged a few weeks, though, it tasted like the original beer.

When I mentioned this to John Palmer, he said something like "Hops utilization is independent of wort gravity, but break material may impact the utilization."

In any case, since then (about 2006 or so), I've been suggesting that for very low IBU beers where a difference of IBUs may be more noticeable, lowering the bittering hops by 15-20% may not be a bad idea. In other beers, it would not be nearly as critical and perhaps a difference of 8-10 IBUs would be less significant anyway.

Nice Yooper! This is the sort of thing I needed to hear. The interweb is useful, but some stuff lives on in perpetuity and people like me read it years down the road thinking things haven't changed. What you said makes a lot of sense regarding highly bittered beers vs. low bittered beers in that you will notice slight bitterness changes in low IBU beers vs. higher IBU beers. I think maybe I will just give it a try and follow my original hopping rate/schedule and see what happens since this is a moderately hoppy beer.

What are your thoughts on adding the DME and boiling for 60 minutes? Necessary? John Palmer kind of glossed over something and said that if you were hopping (like I am) that you would want to add some extract early on to get an appropriate pH in your boil for hops utilization.

Indianhead_Brewer 04-18-2012 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryno84 (Post 4006146)
I have been confused over this debate as well. I have read threads on here about late addition extract and thought this is what I should do. But then when I picked up my last kit at MoreBeer (which is my LHBS), they told me I should be boiling the extract for the full 60 minutes. He admitted I didn't have to, but that he recommended it.

So, now I am more confused as ever. I guess there are just two theories on the matter. I figure I will have to try out both and see if there is a difference. Of course, making changes to the hops schedule because of the hops utilization part is really over my head.

Yeah, the podcast sort of blew my mind in this respect (boil for 60 vs. add late and just pasteurize) and once again went against most reading I have done up until this point. Even the online 1st addition of Palmer notes to add all the extract at the beginning of the boil (I am assuming this is different in the 3rd edition - Just another reason I need to buy a hard copy of this book). What they were saying makes complete sense though in that boiling the extract again wasn't necessary since it's already been cooked once.

Like you hops utilization is way over my head at this point and I am not going to pretend to have a grasp of it. :drunk:

JonK331 04-18-2012 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryno84 (Post 4006146)
I have been confused over this debate as well. I have read threads on here about late addition extract and thought this is what I should do. But then when I picked up my last kit at MoreBeer (which is my LHBS), they told me I should be boiling the extract for the full 60 minutes. He admitted I didn't have to, but that he recommended it.

So, now I am more confused as ever. I guess there are just two theories on the matter. I figure I will have to try out both and see if there is a difference. Of course, making changes to the hops schedule because of the hops utilization part is really over my head.

I hate to say it but the guy at MB was totally wrong. Check out this article which supports Jamil/Palmer: http://baderbrewing.com/store/product.php?productid=22691&cat=396&page=1

badbrew 04-19-2012 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonK331 (Post 4006963)
I hate to say it but the guy at MB was totally wrong. Check out this article which supports Jamil/Palmer: http://baderbrewing.com/store/product.php?productid=22691&cat=396&page=1

I'm gonna try this on my pliny clone next. The one thing I hate is trying to get the boil back after adding extract.

DurtyChemist 04-19-2012 11:25 AM

Best way to do it is to follow the instructions and to do it your way....so make two batches and see if the beer is so different it changes your mind. Ive just started hearing about late malt additions but I'll stick to boiling it twice as it works for me.


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