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Old 10-10-2008, 06:21 PM   #11
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That makes no sense, the yeast eat then reproduce, then eat and reproduce, the fermentation is the by product of that cycle
Apperently, before fementation begins a rapid reproduction phase occurs in the first severl hours, due to the uptake of oxygen. I'm not arguing woth you, and I don't do it this way. I leave it on the stirplate for a day or so, crash it for a day or so, decant and pitch.

But Dan Gordon does do it this way, and he is arguably one of America's best brewers, and was the first American in many decades to graduate from the prestigious Weinstephan institue, so I trust him more than you, sorry. In an interview with him on the BN, he goes in depth into what makes a good starter, and I then discussed it with him (that was BAD ASS) at the opening of his new restaurant here. If Dan says there is a Logarithmic growth stage before fermentation reaches high krausen, then I believe him. He is the one who has watched them under a micoscope, and I mean, have you ever tasted his beers? He knows what he's doing.
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Old 10-10-2008, 06:23 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by G-E-R-M-A-N View Post
I thought you should pitch starter at the same temp as wort temp.
You should. Warm it back up after taking it out of the fridge before you pitch.
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Old 10-10-2008, 08:17 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by BarleyWater View Post
Apperently, before fementation begins a rapid reproduction phase occurs in the first severl hours, due to the uptake of oxygen. I'm not arguing woth you, and I don't do it this way. I leave it on the stirplate for a day or so, crash it for a day or so, decant and pitch.

But Dan Gordon does do it this way, and he is arguably one of America's best brewers, and was the first American in many decades to graduate from the prestigious Weinstephan institue, so I trust him more than you, sorry. In an interview with him on the BN, he goes in depth into what makes a good starter, and I then discussed it with him (that was BAD ASS) at the opening of his new restaurant here. If Dan says there is a Logarithmic growth stage before fermentation reaches high krausen, then I believe him. He is the one who has watched them under a micoscope, and I mean, have you ever tasted his beers? He knows what he's doing.
The exponential growth phase is just common to growth of all microorganisms, bacteria and yeast alike. It's the phase when they're reproducing and will do so up to a certain population density depending on a variety of factors such as nutrient levels, oxygen, etc. After the growth phases (there are multiple ones) you're in the stationary phase and then death phase, which is guaranteed to happen in a batch process like a starter. Now, I think yeast just go dormant and will avoid that last phase for some time. Slowing increasing the volume of the starters avoids these last two phases and keeps the little yeasties happy and growing up. A continuous process could actually keep the yeast in their growth phase all the time.

When anything is put into a new environment they have a lag phase, which is where they are judging the environment they're in, absorbing oxygen, and eating food. Even during the growth phase they're eating food though.

I'm just recalling this from memory here as I'm not sure where my bio eng stuff is at currently. I've been meaning to track down where I put it during my last move.

I'm really wondering how far apart the different strains of yeast are that we end up using, as in, I wonder if they're all similar in the terms of same reproduction mechanisms and similar growth kinetics. Or even if most of the Lager yeasts are similar and most of the Ale Yeasts are similar.
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Old 10-10-2008, 08:26 PM   #14
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I'm really wondering how far apart the different strains of yeast are that we end up using, as in, I wonder if they're all similar in the terms of same reproduction mechanisms and similar growth kinetics. Or even if most of the Lager yeasts are similar and most of the Ale Yeasts are similar.
I always think of them as being very similar, like people. Lager yeasts work at warm temps, and even prefer them, but we prefer the flavor the produce at lower temps. Like people, Inuits and Eskimos live where it is much colder than most of us could survive. Sure, they would probably prefer it in the 70s or 80s like everyone else, but they can deal with the cold, just like lager yeats. Belgian yeasts are like people in arid climates, because they can work when is a lot hotter than most of us would prefer.

I think of different yeast strians like different nationalities or races of the same thing.
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Old 10-11-2008, 05:02 AM   #15
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I always think of them as being very similar, like people. Lager yeasts work at warm temps, and even prefer them, but we prefer the flavor the produce at lower temps. Like people, Inuits and Eskimos live where it is much colder than most of us could survive. Sure, they would probably prefer it in the 70s or 80s like everyone else, but they can deal with the cold, just like lager yeats. Belgian yeasts are like people in arid climates, because they can work when is a lot hotter than most of us would prefer.

I think of different yeast strians like different nationalities or races of the same thing.
That's probably a good way to think about it.

I wish you could get more information about the different strains when you buy them though. Of course, I'm the science/engineer type of person and think they should provide a lot of information about the yeast.
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Old 10-11-2008, 05:07 AM   #16
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I wish you could get more information about the different strains when you buy them though. Of course, I'm the science/engineer type of person and think they should provide a lot of information about the yeast.
They do, on the website, and they will give you even more if you email them and ask. Wyeast and White Labs have amazing support.
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Old 10-11-2008, 05:12 AM   #17
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They do, on the website, and they will give you even more if you email them and ask. Wyeast and White Labs have amazing support.
That's good to know! I'm starting to see how much of a difference just yeast can make.
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Old 10-11-2008, 05:18 AM   #18
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That's good to know! I'm starting to see how much of a difference just yeast can make.
I would argue that it is the most important ingredient. Without good healthy yeast, it doesn't matter what the recipe is, it won't be good beer.
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Old 10-11-2008, 07:20 AM   #19
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Beervana: Evolution of Lager Yeast - Mom Was an Ale

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Old 10-11-2008, 05:34 PM   #20
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The general idea is to add a large number of yeast cells to fresh oxygenated wort that is being agitated (there are many acceptable ways to do this), and the pitch about 4-6 hours later (depending on the temperature). The starter should be the same temperature as the beer (unsually about 25 C, cooler for lagers). Obtaining a large number of cells can be done with 1) a smack pack or commercial tube 2) dried yeast 3) washed, sedimented slurry 4) a "crashed" culture with the supernatant decanted and fresh oxgenated wort added. Naturally, controlling bacterial growth is always a problem and I suspect that autoclaves and antibiotics are extensively use in commercial propagation.

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