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Old 11-21-2009, 08:37 AM   #1
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Default wheat beer out of umalted wheat

I have found some recipe/technique for unmalted brew..

Now,is it possible to use barley malt to convert wheat starches to sugar,or i need to hav atleast small amount of wheat malt to do that?

I am asking cuz in book they didnt use prefix,just "malt"

Recipe goes something like this:

1kg of unmalted grains
200gr "malt" ----> which malt
6l Water

First rest at 50C
Second rest at
75C
Boil 30min

Soon as it boils, we go on to other part:

3l Water at 60C
1.3kg "Barley malt"
And target mash temp will be around 52C

Then we mix both portions and we have mash at 78C.

Then filtration and etc..

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Old 11-21-2009, 11:04 AM   #2
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yeah your fine with using barley malt(aka 2row) but your better off trying to find some 6row malt for it's higher diastatic power.

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Old 11-21-2009, 12:28 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by eriktlupus View Post
yeah your fine with using barley malt(aka 2row) but your better off trying to find some 6row malt for it's higher diastatic power.

He's in Croatia. The chances of finding 6-row malt are slim and there isn't enough difference in diastatic power to worry about anyway.
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Old 11-21-2009, 12:39 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beer_master View Post
I have found some recipe/technique for unmalted brew..

Now,is it possible to use barley malt to convert wheat starches to sugar,or i need to hav atleast small amount of wheat malt to do that?

I am asking cuz in book they didnt use prefix,just "malt"

Recipe goes something like this:

1kg of unmalted grains
200gr "malt" ----> which malt
6l Water

First rest at 50C
Second rest at
75C
Boil 30min

Soon as it boils, we go on to other part:

3l Water at 60C
1.3kg "Barley malt"
And target mash temp will be around 52C

Then we mix both portions and we have mash at 78C.

Then filtration and etc..
You need enough malt to provide the enzymes to convert the starch of the unmalted grain. What your recipe describes sounds like a cereal mash followed by a conversion mash. You would need to cook the unmalted grain as detailed if it is raw. If the unmalted grain has already been flaked or torrified (puffed) then you can skip the cooking process and go straight to mashing. The 52C mash temp is too low and 78C is too hot. The main conversion mash should be done in the area of 66C. A short rest at 76-78C can be done following the main mash but doing the main conversion mash at that temp will seriously degrade your starch conversion. The ratio of 1.3-1.5Kg malt to 1Kg unmalted grain in the recipe should work OK.
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Old 11-21-2009, 12:43 PM   #5
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yeah hes in croatia. and yes there is a difference in power between the 2. especially if they are not fully modified which is why i was informing him of both options.

OP- i'm a little worried about only having 200gr of barley to convert 1kilo of wheat, i think thats a little to much for the enzymes to do an adequate job and would like to see a more even ratio between the two grains. also is this a partial mash recipe?ie will you be adding an extract to this or is it just the malts?

i think the boil for the wheat is what is known as a cereal mash now. this is to cook the grains to enable conversion, we do the same when we use uncooked corn or rice in a recipe. which also explains why you only have 200gr in the initial mash duh!

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Old 11-21-2009, 03:26 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eriktlupus View Post
yeah hes in croatia. and yes there is a difference in power between the 2. especially if they are not fully modified which is why i was informing him of both options.

OP- i'm a little worried about only having 200gr of barley to convert 1kilo of wheat, i think thats a little to much for the enzymes to do an adequate job and would like to see a more even ratio between the two grains. also is this a partial mash recipe?ie will you be adding an extract to this or is it just the malts?

i think the boil for the wheat is what is known as a cereal mash now. this is to cook the grains to enable conversion, we do the same when we use uncooked corn or rice in a recipe. which also explains why you only have 200gr in the initial mash duh!

Its all AG brew,i can get 6-row from institute,but its a drag to order it by post.

Is there any way to convert this recipe to single infusion,or it has to be step mash.
What do you suggest regarding the ratios between Raw wheat and barley malt.
I think somethink like this ,first i need to boil the raw wheat to gelatinize starches(or get wheat flakes instead)
Lets say i do Single infusion. After the wheat is cooked i mix it up with barley malt(how much barley to match up the wheat,or what ratio u suggest?) and strike it with whatever water at whatever temp, let it rest for hour or so ,then batch sparge...etc...

Is it possible to convert it to Single infusion,and what grain to water ratio,mashing temp u suggest?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigEd View Post
You need enough malt to provide the enzymes to convert the starch of the unmalted grain. What your recipe describes sounds like a cereal mash followed by a conversion mash. You would need to cook the unmalted grain as detailed if it is raw. If the unmalted grain has already been flaked or torrified (puffed) then you can skip the cooking process and go straight to mashing. The 52C mash temp is too low and 78C is too hot. The main conversion mash should be done in the area of 66C. A short rest at 76-78C can be done following the main mash but doing the main conversion mash at that temp will seriously degrade your starch conversion. The ratio of 1.3-1.5Kg malt to 1Kg unmalted grain in the recipe should work OK.
Same question Thanx guys!
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Old 11-21-2009, 03:37 PM   #7
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The geniuses at the Australian Podcast http://radio.craftbrewer.org/ have made big strides in brewing their "tropical flower wit" with a large amount of standard all purpose flour....you'll need to search through the podcast archives to find the various discussions about what they do..iirc they actually "dry roast" some of the flour in a pan to help convert it...but it's been awhile since I listened....

But here's Graham Sander's, the host of the broadcast (which is the oldest brewing program, btw...it started as a radio show on australian radio), recipe for it.

Quote:
Category: 12. BELGIAN and FRENCH ALE
Style: Belgian Wit
Recipe Name: Tropical Flower Wit (of sorts)
Brewer's Name: Graham Sanders
Brewing Method: Mash
Starting Gravity: 1.053
Ending Gravity: 1.008-1.010
Alcohol (w/w%): arround 5%
Bitterness (IBU): 17
Colour (SRM): Bloody Light
Specification Comments: This beer is made with plain white flour. You may instead used flaked or crushed wheat, in which case, up the amount by 10-20% to account for the yield difference. Do use lots of rice hulls to aid sparging.
Size of Batch: 38
Batch Size Unit: Liters
Extract Efficiency: 95%
Fermentables: 3.5 kg Pilsner Malt (Galaxy is good as it has a high glutenase level to aid in breaking down the wheat gums)
3.0 kg White Wheat Flour
0.3 kg Rolled Oats
Hop Additions: 45 grams low aplha Tettnanger 60 minutes boil
15 grams Goldings 10 minutes
15 grams goldings strike
Wort Preparation: A 2 and a half decoction is employed. water is treated with salts to 50ppm Ca. Sodium Bimet added to stop oxidisation. Mix is 2.5 litres per kg of grain.
1. 1 kg of crushed grain is heated to 50C. All the flour mixed in. Raised to 68C and held for 30 minutes.
2. this is added to rest of grain and water. Temperature levels out to arround mid 40C. Hold for 30 minutes
3. Lift a small proportion (25%). Raise to 70C hold 20 minutes, then boil for 5 minutes. add back to main mash.
4. Temp will level out mid 50C. hold for 30 minutes.
5. Lift 35-40% of mash, raise to 70C, hold for 30 minutes, and boil then for 5 minutes, add then back to main mash.
6. Temp levels out at 68C, hold for an hour, then sparge.
Boiling and Cooling: Boil for 60 minutes
Other additions
30 grams of dried orange peel, 20 minutes from end
50 grams of lightly crushed corrander, 10 minutes from end
30 grams of lightly crushed corrander, 30 grams of manderine peel, 0.5 teaspoon cummin, secret ingredient X at strike
Other Additions: A sour mash is dne 2 days before hand with 5% of the grian bill, this is added to the mash.
Yeast Information: Yeast culture from Hoegaarden, fermented at 18C.
Fermentation Details: Ferment at 18C for a week.
Skim beer of all scum for super clean taste.
Other Brewing Information: pH is more critical here than people realise. Mash pH should level out at 5.1 from the sour mash, and sparge water pH should also be a little low at arround 5.5.
Competition Results: Its fame speaks for itself. All who make this beer testify its worth the effort. Competitions won around the world with this receipe.
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Old 11-22-2009, 01:10 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Revvy View Post
The geniuses at the Australian Podcast http://radio.craftbrewer.org/ have made big strides in brewing their "tropical flower wit" with a large amount of standard all purpose flour....you'll need to search through the podcast archives to find the various discussions about what they do..iirc they actually "dry roast" some of the flour in a pan to help convert it...but it's been awhile since I listened....

But here's Graham Sander's, the host of the broadcast (which is the oldest brewing program, btw...it started as a radio show on australian radio), recipe for it.
Hey Revvy, do they mill their wheat to make flour to keep it from going stale?
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Old 11-22-2009, 01:20 AM   #9
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Hey Revvy, do they mill their wheat to make flour to keep it from going stale?
It's just the flour you get at your grocery store...seriously. You really have to dig through their audio archives, where they talk about it. Sadly it's hard to figure out which episode they actually went into detail on what they do...it's sort of done as a discussion on all the 'casts. They mention a little bit here and there what they did in the brew.

I think I might tackle it this year.....
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Old 11-22-2009, 02:43 AM   #10
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I believe 2-row malt has ample diastatic power to convert unmalted wheat...just limit the wheat to 30 -40% of the grain bill. I believe the Germans use raw wheat for hefs??? Hell, i've made a few batches of spaghetti wheat beer, and I'm not alone either. Interesting Revvy that the ausies are using good ole flour as an adjunct...hah...who'd a thought??

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/anyb...adjunct-96661/

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