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Old 02-28-2008, 05:57 PM   #11
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We'll see how my methods are working in a couple months. Damn those lagers. I've been using step mashes in my lagers this year - my first year really brewing a bunch of lagers. Mash in at 130 F for 10 min, then up to 149 for 45-60 min, then up to 158 for 10-15 min and mashout to 168 F. In my unfinished beer sampling I seem to be getting a nice body. For hops, I've been doing similar to you, maybe a little more flavor hops though. I'll typically go with 20 - 35 IBU of 60' hops (depending on style) and always at least some flavoring hops, often at 20' min, not 30'. Typically less than 1/2 oz. I like the 20' min addition as I think I still get just a hint of some aroma, and not to much flavor. This past weekend I brewed a Czech Pils with 0.2 oz of Saaz added at 5'. This is the first of 5 lagers so far this winter with any aroma addition. I wonder if this small of an addition might give you what you want. We'll see how the aromas compare - in a couple months.

I've working over a hypothesis in my head that heating for at least 5' leads to a stabilization of aromas, making them more aging stable.

Yeast maybe? I've only messed around with 2 lager strains so far (trying a 3rd soon). I do know that some ale yeasts, like the White Labs Kolsch can really bring out the hop flavors - maybe relating to sulfur? The Kolsch yeast is a stinky one!

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Old 02-28-2008, 06:16 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser
I basically think that I chill to early (not to quickly) and that there might be the need for a smidge of DMS in the aroma. That's why I'm planning to keep the wort hot for a while before chilling. Now I think I may just go with a 60 min boil and chill 10 min after flame-out. Later I may increase this time.

The rest of the ingridents are pilsner malt and WY2206 grown from a plate.

I'll also boil my racking hose just to make sure I'm not getting an infection from there. It looks a little gunky and I don't have the time to go to the LHBS.

Kai
I've never heard of chilling "too early". I also don't brew lagers or have a problem with DMS. That said, This interests me. Do you know where you read that?

Seeing I know you slightly on a personal level, I happen to know you are probably more sensitive to DMS than most others. I am also assuming you are probably noticing something that anyone else who tries your beers probably doesn't notice. That said, it is your beer and if you aren't happy with it, then what is the point, right?

I read through your initial post again, and the leaky manifold concerns me as well--not for DMS production so much, but for oxygenating your wort. That could attribute to the harshness/dustiness you described. As we all know, oxygen is bad, bad news for wort until just before fermentation.

Kai, I'm going to give this to you straight. I think you need to do later hop additions to mask these off flavors that you are getting. Even a very small late addition will do it wonders, IMHO.
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Old 02-28-2008, 06:20 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaybird
sounds like decoction mash is what your looking for for the aroma and flavor without overdoing it with the hops.. DMS a must and if your chilling to pitch temp is 20 min ya I would say for that beer I would take it down to about 150 and let it rest there for 20 to 30 min then chill to pitch temp over another 30 min or so.
JMHO
JJ
Please explain how a decoction mash affects aroma? This is a new one to me.
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Old 02-28-2008, 06:41 PM   #14
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Personally I 'd fix that leak first (it may not be the issue, but I don't think it is a positive thing). The DMS brainstorm is interesting, and your trouble could be in that realm. Sometimes what pulls out a uniqueness in a beer is something that borders on flawed (like as I have read about Sam Smith's Pale Ale). This is a philosophy that you find in many arts. Perfection doesn't always mean 'perfect' if you get what I mean. I wonder though, does it seem your beers have degraded in flavor? If so, and you are on municipal water make sure the composition hasn't changed. I know it's a long shot, but it could merit looking into.

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Old 02-28-2008, 09:14 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dude
Kai, I'm going to give this to you straight. I think you need to do later hop additions to mask these off flavors that you are getting. Even a very small late addition will do it wonders, IMHO.
I'm planning to make this very light beer to expose all the flaws that my process still has even if I pay very close attention to the details.

The DMS thing is new for me. I'm just doing this to see what is the aroma that I can get when I leave a little more of it in the beer before it is to much to have a noticable corn smell. I suspect that this is the aroma that I find in some of the commercial examples. I can later decide if I like it or not.

Zoebish is corret, the absence of certain "flaws" may become a flaw. As an example, though lagers are considered low ester beers, they are not free of esters. Esters are a vital aroma compund in any beer and w/o them the beer would taste and smell empty. You just need to make sure that you get the right mix and level of them.

Dude,

I still have one of your flip-tops and always meant to send it back anyway. I filled it with my Doppelbock and may throw in some more beers as well. Including some which I think jave the pesky off-flavor that I want to get rid of.

Kai
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Old 03-02-2008, 05:33 AM   #16
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I'm brewing this one tonight. So far everything went just fine. The mash held its rests very nicely in the kettle when wrapped in blankets and a sleeping bag. No bubbles while lautering: the teflon tape must have worked. I'm now holding the DMS rest for 15 min.

Kai

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Old 03-05-2008, 12:19 PM   #17
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This one was off to a slow start. 48hrs to low kraeusen was a new record for me. I'm not quite sure what the problem was, but I suspect the lower than usual pitching temp (42 *F) and only 80ml (2.5 oz) of yeast sediment for pitching. Another reason might be the better than usual cold break removal (contains some nutrients) and the skipping of the 20 min protein rest. But I doubt that it could have been tha latter. Even the cold break removal wasn't complete enough to get more than 60% of the cold break out of the wort.

I's going now with a 1.5 in kraeusen. I was hoping for a blow-off to get rid of the gunk on the Kraeusen, but I wil have to top off with more wort for that.

Kai

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Old 03-05-2008, 03:30 PM   #18
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Mine was slow too (Vienna lager). I did the modified batch sparge, never letting the grain bed get exposed to air. I had intended this to be a modified fly sparge (no grain bed mixing), but I ran my first runnings a bit too fast and compacted the grain bed a bit too much. I just added the sparge water and mixed, vorlauf, drained to the top of the grain bed and repeated again. OG was 2 pts high (1.052). Like you, I had very good cold break removal with this batch. I recirculated until 140 F, then switched to pumping to the carboy. My mash schedule was 10 min at 130F, 60 min at 148F, 10 min at 158F mash out to 168 F.

I'm a little suspicious of cold shocking my starter, but I did that process like I normally do. My normal routine for lagers is to have my stirlplates in a back room at ~ 62F, then into the fridge as I get ready to boil so only 1.5 hrs or so at 45F. Pitched at 50 F. This year I've been getting good krausen formation by 24 hrs, but not with this batch. My krausen is very clean, no gunk, just white foam. My frankenstein kettle filter worked very well this time. I was concerend there for a while as it was so slow and I know I pitched a good amount of yeast. Now I wonder if it had something to do with the wort, not a cold shock, as that part of my process was as I normally do.

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Old 03-05-2008, 03:41 PM   #19
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Interesting to hear that you are seeing a similar thing. I doubt that it is the modified sparge and I'm more inclined to blame the cold break removal though the literature I read suggests 12 hr setting. But that is for a much lager vessel, in a small brew pot that clearing should be much faster.

My Kraeusen is also fairly clean which I contribute to the increased cold break removal and the fact that it was hopped before the boil. The hot break must have bound up lots of the alpha acids.

Kai

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Old 03-05-2008, 04:11 PM   #20
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Getting back to the original comment about lack of aroma. I've been reading through the new JZ & JP beer styles book and the European lager recipes all have 1 oz of hops added at both 15' and 5 ' (or flameout). This seems quite a bit excessive for the style. That's a fair bit of aroma. According to the BJCP, that might be acceptable to have high aroma in a CAP, but not a German or Bohemian Pilsner. 1 oz in the last 5-0 minutes is going to add quite a bit of aroma, way more than I detect in commercial examples. As I said before, In addition to the bittering additions, I've been adding about 0.5 oz of hops at 20' in most of my lagers this year with only 1 batch that I added 0.25 oz of Saaz at 5'. My first batch should be ready in 4-6 weeks.

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