SMaSH Advice MO & Argentinian Cascade

**Revvy** · 12-12-2008, 02:11 PM

I was thinking about doing a SMaSH using some of the stock of cheap Argentinian Cascade I bought up before I realized that it wasn't a substitution for true cascades.

I asked on a thread about what grain to use, and several people suggested I use Maris Otter, and toast a couple pound of it.

So I cobbled this up together...I haven't actually run it through my beersmith yet, I decided to use Beercalculus because it has a neat little icon that shows if the recipe is balanced or not, and according to BC it is balanced. I'm sure I'll have to tweak it a bit when I run it in Beersmith tonight.

I figure I'll toast one pound for an hour, and the other for an 1.5 to 2 hours...

So what do you all think?

Maris Otter/Argentinian Cascade SMaSH

Batch size: 2.5 gallons

malt and fermentables

% LB OZ Malt or Fermentable ppg °L

100% 6 0 British Pale (Maris Otter) 37 3

(2 pounds of MO toasted for 2 different times)

hops
oz variety form aa time
1.5 Argentine Cascade pellet 3.2 @60
1.0 Argentine Cascade pellet 3.2 @20
0 0.5 Argentine Cascade pellet 3.2 @Flameout

yeast
Safale S-04 Dry Yeast
ale yeast in dry form with high flocculation

Original Gravity
1.065
(1.058 to 1.067)
Final Gravity
1.017
(1.015 to 1.019)
Color
?Srms ? (Depends on color of toasted grains)
Mash Efficiency
75%
Bitterness
4.8 HBU
42.7 IBU
BU:GU
0.66
Alcohol
6.4% A.B.V.
5.0% A.B.W.
Calories
215 per 12 oz.

What temp and time would you all Mash it at?

**Revvy** · 12-12-2008, 03:37 PM

*Crickets Chirping*

**Saccharomyces** · 12-12-2008, 04:02 PM

Umm, I think you should send some to me??

**Chriso** · 12-12-2008, 04:15 PM

Might be a tad on the hoppy side. The super duper graph of balance says:

I have not used the Arg. Casc's so I can't say whether that particular hop will come across too strongly.

I can say that, with my Hersbrucker SMaSH (which I think Hersbr has a similar profile to Arg. Casc.) I wish I had toned down the hop additions just a little...... but I also had a lower gravity.

I think that it's gotta come out drinkable, though, after all it's a SMaSH!

**Revvy** · 12-12-2008, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chriso

Might be a tad on the hoppy side. The super duper graph of balance says:

I have not used the Arg. Casc's so I can't say whether that particular hop will come across too strongly.

I can say that, with my Hersbrucker SMaSH (which I think Hersbr has a similar profile to Arg. Casc.) I wish I had toned down the hop additions just a little...... but I also had a lower gravity.

I think that it's gotta come out drinkable, though, after all it's a SMaSH!

Well maybe Beer Calculus's balance thingy isn't that accurate...I though I got it balanced...I'll tweak it with the chart thingy I guess...

Danke'

**Chriso** · 12-12-2008, 04:37 PM

If it were I --- and this is not knowing how Arg. Casc. behaves at all.....

I'd drop the bittering addition down a little bit, to get it closer to 32-35 IBUs.

Are you doing this 2.5 gal batch with top-up water, or a full boil? I can run it in BeerSmith right now for ya.

In concept, it sounds fantastic. I especially like using two different toast lengths, I'd do 20 minutes and - if you can pull it off without the malt starting to burn/smoke - 40 minutes for the two lengths.

I think it's a sound start. I'm just not sure if there will be too much bitter, not enough flavor/aroma.

**Revvy** · 12-12-2008, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chriso

If it were I --- and this is not knowing how Arg. Casc. behaves at all.....

I'd drop the bittering addition down a little bit, to get it closer to 32-35 IBUs.

Are you doing this 2.5 gal batch with top-up water, or a full boil? I can run it in BeerSmith right now for ya.

In concept, it sounds fantastic. I especially like using two different toast lengths, I'd do 20 minutes and - if you can pull it off without the malt starting to burn/smoke - 40 minutes for the two lengths.

I think it's a sound start. I'm just not sure if there will be too much bitter, not enough flavor/aroma.

Nah, no top off water this will be a full volume boil with whatever volume Beersmith says to....

I've been reading the stuff on toasting malts, like the chapter in how to brew and Oz Craftbrewer, they talk about wet toasting @ 350°F

1 hour Light sweet Toasty flavor.

1.5 hours Toasted Malty, slightly sweet.

2 hours Strong Toast/Roast flavor similar to Brown Malt.

SO I was thinking 1 pound an hour and the other 90 minutes...

Graham Sanders also recommeds adding a little sugar to the water you soak the grains in, this will help improve the Maillard reaction.

Zymurgrafi · 12-12-2008, 05:32 PM

I have not played with toasting grains much. From what it would seem though you will end up with a brown ale?

I have read the Argentinian Casacades are sort of closer to a noble hop type character IIRC. Fairly mild in comparison to American Cascades.

Sound like an interesting experiment. However, I will suggest that it is perhaps not the best way to get to know these hops and the grain as you are throwing in different variables with the multiple toastings as well. Perhaps several small batches with only one different variable each?

**Revvy** · 12-12-2008, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knights_of_Gambrinus

I have not played with toasting grains much. From what it would seem though you will end up with a brown ale?

I have read the Argentinian Casacades are sort of closer to a noble hop type character IIRC. Fairly mild in comparison to American Cascades.

Sound like an interesting experiment. However, I will suggest that it is perhaps not the best way to get to know these hops and the grain as you are throwing in different variables with the multiple toastings as well. Perhaps several small batches with only one different variable each?

Zym is that you?

I ran some number removing 2 pounds of the MO and replacing them with IIRC crystal 20 and 40, or 40 and 60 to simulate the toasted grains, and the color was only a few degrees L darker. I may not go 60 and 90, but I do want to toast some becasue it was suggested in the other thread was that in order to get a bit of depth of flavor than straight basemalt, I should toast some of it...It seems like tere would be too singular of a profile just straight MO, and AC....

It seems like many of the smashes do it, change the character of some of the malt to add some depth.

**Chriso** · 12-12-2008, 06:08 PM

I can vouch that straight Golden Promise with no toasting is plenty interesting. Have not used MO personally (price, plus I have 2-Row in bulk) in a SMaSH yet, but I would presume that it would also be at least drinkable and interesting on its own.

Re: Toasting method, I was just picturing Dude's Lake Walk method, where it's toasted dry. This research re: damp toasting is very interesting, I like where you are going with this!

Whether you use toasted grains or stick to straight MO, this has the potential to be a heckuva good beer. Kind of like a Noble Bitter.