The Great Bottle Opener Giveaway

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing > Sinking temps during sparge

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 11-03-2008, 08:30 PM   #1
Judochop
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Libertyville, IL
Posts: 305
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default Sinking temps during sparge

I have a basic understanding of what those little alpha and beta amylases are up to during the mash. My mash tun holds temps fairly well in warm weather. Cold is a different story, but I’m working on building a mash blanket to help hold ‘em in place.

Anyway, that’s not the point. The point is that once I start (fly) sparging, the temp on the mash drops slowly but significantly, by the hour’s end landing around 140 F and I’m not sure there’s anything I can do about that.

Is this in any way reversing my efforts to create a full-bodied, lower-alcohol beer by mashing in at higher temps? Will the beta enzymes start kicking in again as the temp drops and ‘undo’ some of the chewy dextrins I’ve created?

I recognize that a mash out @ 168 will put me beyond the range of either enzyme, but the dropping temp issue is still present and I’ll probably end up right in the mix of things in temperatures around 150-155.

So, in short, what are the conversion effects of sinking temps during the sparge?
Can I rely on my mash temperatures do to the bulk of the work and not worry about what happens conversion-wise after 60 minutes of mashing?
Are folks here happy with their beer body building techniques?

I await brilliant responses, or redirection to another thread. (Honestly, I tried searching, but it’s hard to know what to search for sometimes.)

-jc

__________________
Judochop is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-03-2008, 08:52 PM   #2
DeathBrewer
Maniacally Malty
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
DeathBrewer's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 21,825
Liked 202 Times on 112 Posts

Default

a mash-out will definitely help. i usually have quite a drop in my beers when i'm fly sparging (kind of half-assed, i call it splash-sparging) and i still get full bodied beers.

sounds like you simply need to increase the temperature of your sparge water. it should be above your desired mash temp so it keeps the mash temp consistent.

__________________
Easy Partial Mash Brewing - Stovetop All-Grain Brewing

"Death is always with us." - Brewpastor

Quote:
DIAICYLF
We will remember...
DeathBrewer is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-03-2008, 09:20 PM   #3
Judochop
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Libertyville, IL
Posts: 305
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathBrewer View Post
sounds like you simply need to increase the temperature of your sparge water. it should be above your desired mash temp so it keeps the mash temp consistent.
I bring it to 182 before I dump it (quickly) into my 5 gal cooler HLT. I figured it was hot enough hitting the surface of the mash, but then quickly cools there before it has time to really effect the bulk of the mash temp.

If anybody else notices the same drop in temp during sparge, how hot do you get your sparge water in order to maintain?

(I think at some point, water can be TOO hot for the cooler, no?)
__________________
Judochop is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-04-2008, 11:48 AM   #4
Jonnio
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Jonnio's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,525
Liked 7 Times on 7 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Is the temp in the hlt way down too? If so just add your sparge water in stages of 180 degree pours

__________________

------------------------------------------------
Official member of HBAMAP (Home Brewers Against Murder and Pedophilia)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revvy View Post
Then that means dumping your beer because you think it's bad is tantamount to abortion! And as Big Kahuna says, drinking a beer too soon is tatamount to beer pedophilia...
Jonnio is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-04-2008, 04:15 PM   #5
sleepystevenson
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: North Western PA
Posts: 458
Liked 9 Times on 6 Posts

Default

Hey JudoChop,

I had this exact same experience on my last brew saturday. It was the first time I had fly sparged. Everything seemed to go fine, except for that falling mash tun temp. I use a direct fired recirculation mash tun. I raised the temps in the mash to 169 for mash out, then started the sparge. By the time the sparge was done (almost 2 hrs at 1 qt. per min.), the mash temp was down around 140. As soon as I noticed the mash temp dropping, I increase the temp of the HLT sparge water. However, no matter how high I went, the temps continued falling. I was up to 190 + with the sparge water! I was actually nervous about it being TOO hot.

So, I am looking for advise on this issue, too! I hope we can get some more responses!

After I had a couple gallons into the brew kettle, I fired it up on low just to get the temps up over the mash out temp of 168. BUT, the mash itself was still really low on the temps.

BTW, I use one pump to move sparge water from HLT to MLT and another pump to move the wort from the MLT to the Kettle.

Sorry about jacking your thread - but I didn't see the point in creating another one when you had the same thing here!

__________________
sleepystevenson is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-04-2008, 04:42 PM   #6
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 21,823
Liked 900 Times on 600 Posts
Likes Given: 26

Default

If you go into the HLT cooler at 185, the cooler walls itself are going to steal a lot of heat. If your mash is still at 155, the water dripping in will need to be at least at 185 because it will continue losing temp as it sits on top of the grain bed.

This is another reason I like batch sparging. The temp is what it is when you dump it in.

__________________
BrewHardware.com
Sightglass, Refractometer, Ball Valve, Weldless bulkhead, Thermometer, Decals, Stainless Steel Fittings, Compression Fittings, Camlock Quick Disconnects, Scale, RIMS tube, Plate Chiller, Chugger Pump, Super Clear Silicone Tubing, and more!

New Stuff?
Bobby_M is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-04-2008, 08:54 PM   #7
sleepystevenson
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: North Western PA
Posts: 458
Liked 9 Times on 6 Posts

Default

Yeah, Bobby you're right about batch sparging and temp control. This was my first time fly sparging - thought I would give is a try. It DID raise my efficiency from 65% to 72%, which was nice. But it took forever! I kinda wonder if my efficiency wouldn't have been even better if the mash temps had been in the right place throughout the sparge. (Always did your double batch sparge method before, Bobby, with great success ).

I did raise the mash temp to about 169 for mashout before beginning the sparge. It just continually cooled from there throughout the 2 hr sparge. (next time I fly sparge I am definitely going for more than 1 qt. per min.)

I wondered, like Judochop, what effects having the mash at a low temp during sparging would be.

And also what the effects would be of using very hot water (close to boiling) - to sparge with would be, in order to keep mash temps up.

__________________
sleepystevenson is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-05-2008, 04:26 PM   #8
Judochop
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Libertyville, IL
Posts: 305
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepystevenson View Post
I wondered, like Judochop, what effects having the mash at a low temp during sparging would be.

And also what the effects would be of using very hot water (close to boiling) - to sparge with would be, in order to keep mash temps up.
I did some more 'research' on the subject (ie. asked the guru at my local HB shop) and discovered that there is really very little enzymatic activity to worry about after the mash. Once conversion has taken place, it has taken place and once beta-amylase has been denatured, it's out of the picture for good. Therefore there's no worrying about 'undoing' my dextrins with dropping temps during the sparge, which was my concern.

I guess the real benefit of maintaining a mash-out temp of 168 during the sparge is just for easier extraction. Warmer temps will make the sugars less sticky and allow for more efficiency in your run-off. The benefit: a few gravity points maybe.

I'm not sure if I'll be mashing-out at all anymore. At the same time, it's just a question of bringing another 1-2 gallons of water to a boil. Since I already have to bring 5 gallons of sparge water to 182, why not make it 7 gallons, and just bring another couple to a boil after filling my HLT cooler?

Indeed. Why NOT.
__________________
Judochop is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-05-2008, 04:52 PM   #9
ChemE
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 603
Liked 16 Times on 10 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

My understanding is mash out is primarily intended to denature the alpha and beta amylase enzymes so that the sugar profile present at the end of the sac rest(s) is preserved during sparging. Without the mash out any enzymes which have not been denatured can continue to act on the sugars present which is highly undesirable if your intention is a chewy beer like a porter.

As you said a secondary benefit is increased sugar solubility and a decrease in wort viscosity which makes it easier to rinse the sugars through and out of the grain bed.

__________________

My Super Efficient 5-Gallon Mash Lauter TunGraduating CarboysLeaf Hop Absorption Measured
Primary - Bemused Bitter, Munich Saaz SMaSH
Secondary - Air
Bottled - Oatmeal Stout 2011, Apfelwein, Withdrawn Wheat, Bourbon Barrel Barleywine SMaSH, Christmas Ale 2010, Perplexed Pale Ale
ChemE is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-05-2008, 06:02 PM   #10
WBC
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
WBC's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: La Puente, CA, California
Posts: 2,175
Liked 8 Times on 8 Posts

Default

Good insulation is the key if you are outside but if your weather has any breeze at all you may be in trouble. You may need a wind break of some sort. A mashout does help to get the sparge up to temperature so if you are fly sparging I would mashout. You will be able to get what you are after if you get control of the heat losses.

__________________

Cheers,
WBC

Fermentor 1: Bill's House Ale II, Fermentor 2: German Helles, Fermentor 3: Bill's Schworzbier (Black Bier)
Tap 1: Bill's House Ale II, Tap 2: German Hefewizen, Tap 3: Nut Brown Ale
Future Brews: Stone IPA Clone, Blonde Ale, Budvar Clone, Newcastle Clone
New toy: Blichmann 27 gallon fermentor


“If you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging”

“Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment”

WBC is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Double batch sparge temps. telebrewer All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 2 10-15-2009 03:48 AM
Low Efficiency / low sparge temps svudah All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 6 02-21-2009 01:30 AM
noob - Sparge Temps???? Lukus All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 1 09-08-2008 09:44 PM
Sparge temps? mward All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 5 05-29-2007 09:16 PM
Batch Sparge Temps. captaineriv All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 8 11-21-2006 10:43 PM



Newest Threads