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Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing > Secondary Fermentation - To Rack or Not to Rack
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Old 01-07-2010, 06:43 PM   #21
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I use a bucket for primary. It stays in there for 10-14 days or until the gravity is down to where I want it and all the krausen has receded. I then cold crash for 4 or so days. When I siphon, I free hand the siphon keeping the end just under the top level of the beer. This helps to minimize yeast being sucked through. I siphon right on top of my dry hop (usually whole leaf) in the keg. I don't even use bags. I put a stainless steel braid over the end of the dip tube. My beer is crystal clear about a week after kegging and it smells absolutely wonderful. My last IPA with 1 oz Amarillo leaf and 1 oz Cent leaf got me quite a few comments at my brew club meeting.

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Old 01-07-2010, 07:15 PM   #22
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Good news to save money, haha. I'd like to buy some better bottles, but I'd rather buy 2 buckets instead.
The only issues with buckets are if they don't seal good or if you scratch or etch the inside, as they are more prone to harboring nasties than glass. If you treat your equipment good and sterilize properly, I don't believe either is a problem.

I thought about going back to buckets because of the problem of getting whole hops into the carboy for dry-hopping, but my wife came up with a solution for that just yesterday. An improvised funnel made from one of those flexible plastic cutting boards.

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Old 01-07-2010, 08:00 PM   #23
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Even John Palmer talks about this in How To Bew;


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Originally Posted by How To Brew
Leaving an ale beer in the primary fermentor for a total of 2-3 weeks (instead of just the one week most canned kits recommend), will provide time for the conditioning reactions and improve the beer. This extra time will also let more sediment settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer and easier pouring. And, three weeks in the primary fermentor is usually not enough time for off-flavors to occur.

This is where the most up to date brewing wisdom and ideas can be found...In fact a lot of stuff has been started on here, and made it into byo or zymurgy or podcasts...in fact BYO DID a piece on no secondary/long primary, along with the BASIC BREWING PODCAST and even they said that there were no issues/harm with doing it and in some beers it did actually improve the flavor and clarity. And I believe that really WAS influenced by the discussion we have had for the last couple years on here.
So what type of analysis was used to conclude this to be true. On this site who is the authority that lead the discussions on the topic Revy? Was A gas spectometer used in any of this so called testing and determination.

The guys doing the podcasts and BYO articles that I am aware of Do Not have degrees from Sibel or UC Davis in brewing science. The brewing science books tell a different tale, so I'm really interested in hearing about the facts of making better beer from leaving the wort on the trub instead of racking it off the crud from the primary fermentation.

John was speaking as in a new brewer being able to use an "ALE" type yeast and getting away from having to rack the wort into a secondary fermenter for three weeks. He mentions nothing about making better ber that way.

The stuff the internet forums come up with is mostly BS, with no real scientific data behind it.


Pro Brewers come on the those brew-talk shows, and tell the brewers to get the wort off the yeast and transfered to a secondary as soon as primary fermentation slows!
Hmmm they only are graduates from UC Davis or Siebel with a degree in brewing science.

That's Like..HDPE isn't permeable.. Take a wiff of a dill pickle bucket after emptied and washed.
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Old 01-07-2010, 08:16 PM   #24
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Pro Brewers come on the those brew-talk shows, and tell the brewers to get the wort off the yeast and transfered to a secondary as soon as primary fermentation slows!

Hmm, have you listened to Basicbrewingradio lately? Have you read the discussion on long primary and on the experiment conducted by many many brewers working together between Basic Brewing radio AND BYO magazine, that backed up what many many many of us have saying on here for 3 or more years, pal? It may be new to you in your 3 months...but not to us.

The results were about two issues back, and BYO wouldn't be suggesting it, if THEY felt it didn't have merit, would they?

Maybe YOU'RE a little behind the times as to what the "pro" brewers are saying.

It's your choice to think it's BS or not, but many of us have plenty of anecdotal evidence and even JUDGING sheets that bear this out. This discussion may be NEW to you, but it's been an ongoing discussion on here for at least three years, with more and more folks trying it and having similar results as the rest of us.

There's 1,000's of threads on here with folks discussing this, and not just ME having success with it....more and more each day, and including some pretty serious brewers that probably brew more than the "pros" do.

A "pro" is just someone who takes a paycheck for doing it, many of us have a bigger passion, and perhaps even a bigger knowledge base but just do it because we love it, and wouldn't do it for pay.

It doesn't mean folks are idiots.

Take Kai, who's been on many podcasts, or Brewpastor who was just on Brewstrong, or Biermuncher who's been in BYO magazine...Plenty of folks on here breaking ground and getting recognition, by the same podcasts you talk about the "pros" being on.

And that's perhaps WHY BYO magazine, AND Basic Brewing Radio, and more and more "pros" are beginning to think "Hey maybe those hobbyiests on HBT who have been doing this for years, MIGHT actually know something that we don't know, and haven't tried, but they have, 'cause THEY don't have a lot to lose, they are willing to risk it to try it out, maybe we should re-evaluate things ourselves."

Rather than scoffing, why don't YOU give it a try and see for your self, you might be surprised.

We've been debating and discussing it on here for nearly 3 years, so it's nothing new to us, and we no longer debate it with any noobs who are stuck in hero worship for what the "pros" say.

We've heard the same line that you just spewed before.....though it's been awhile, since things are changing and more people are trying it for themselves.

And don't even know WHAT the pros' may be saying today as opposed to what they said in a book or something that was writted 3-5 years ago.

Think John Palmer still believes what he wrote in how to brew about IBUs??? Nope.

Ideas change with science, and science changes all the time. Here's a good example John Palmer basically admits that what he wrote about IBU's in How to brew, was essentially "wrong" or at least outdated in light of new science...

Quote:
Basic Brewing Thursday, March 20, 2008 4:30 PM
John Palmer, author of How to Brew, shares information from a conference that challenged his concept of what defines an International Bitterness Unit (IBU). Click to listen, MP-3
I cite that podcast as an example of how the knowlegebase shifts so fast in this hobby because of places like this or podcasts...A book is a snapshot of the author's body of knowledge and the "common wisdom" at the time the author wrote the book, which may mean 3 years before it was even published. Papazian's book is 30+ years old. The basic knowlege is good, but brewing science and experience has progressed to where some things an author believes or says at that time may no-longer be valid...even to the author...

Hell, Papazian just discovered the joys of rice hulls about 3 years ago. So who says an old dog, can't learn something new?

In that Podcast, Palmer basically contradicts in some was what he wrote in HTB...and I bet it will be reflected in his subsequent writings, but if he doesn't go back and revise HTB, and people don't read or listen to anything by him after, than they won't realize that the knowlegebase has already shifted...

And well probably start seeing long primary mentioned in more and more books in the future.


So believe what you want, but I won't debate you, we've been doing this for a long time, with great success, we're just providing the information.



Oh yeah...and you don't KNOW wtf my background in brewing is do you? Maybe I studied at siebel, or maybe I didn't but maybe 15 years ago I almost opened one of the first brewpubs in Michigan, and DID study a lot about brewing, but my brother and partner in it DIED, and maybe I lost passion for brewing, and sought other careers, and then a few years back got back into it as a hobby/passion, and remembered all the learning I did back then.

That's the funny thing about the internet...we really don't know who is behind the AVATAR and nickname, do we?????

Hell, for all YOU knoe maybe I really AM Charlie Papazian.

Edit---But I'm really Chuck Norris.
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Old 01-07-2010, 08:22 PM   #25
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And interesting I believe he DID say improved beer...

Quote:
Leaving an ale beer in the primary fermentor for a total of 2-3 weeks (instead of just the one week most canned kits recommend), will provide time for the conditioning reactions and improve the beer. This extra time will also let more sediment settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer and easier pouring.
WOW.
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Old 01-07-2010, 08:40 PM   #26
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Old 01-07-2010, 08:57 PM   #27
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LOL! That is Awsome.
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Old 01-07-2010, 09:11 PM   #28
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Oh god, doc, you could have used a better picture of me.

Of course I do look evil there.

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Old 01-07-2010, 09:13 PM   #29
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Wait, I thought we all knew Revvy was Chuck Norris, did I miss a thread?

Long primaries with no secondary will definitely hit some new brew books, if it hasn't already. I don't read them anymore, I read HBT instead.

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Old 01-07-2010, 09:22 PM   #30
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Wait, I thought we all knew Revvy was Chuck Norris, did I miss a thread?

Shh.....

Fixed it for you above!

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Edit---But I'm really Chuck Norris.
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I gotta tell ya, just between us girls, that Revvy is HOT. Very tall, gorgeous grey hair and a terrific smile. He's very good looking in person, with a charismatic personality... he drives like a ****ing maniac! - YooperBrew

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