Spike Brewing 12.5 Conical Fermenter Giveaway!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing > Salts just in mash water?

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 10-05-2012, 03:41 PM   #1
krispy3d
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Davis, California
Posts: 60
Liked 12 Times on 9 Posts
Likes Given: 8

Default Salts just in mash water?

Hey all,

I'm getting into using Kai's water calculator for improving my beer by improving the chemistry of the mash, but I have a big question before I brew later today. I've got some guidelines for ranges of the various ions, but, as a single infusion batch sparger, should I target those ranges in only the strike water used for mashing or in the entire water profile. Essentially, in designing recipes I've been targeting the amount of ions for the entire water profile, but since the strike water is usually in the neighborhood of half the entire water used, I'm wondering if I need to cut the salt additions in half so that the ranges are correct just for the mash. Does this question make sense? On Kai's water calculator, I can set it to calculate only the strike water's ion concentrations, but I'm not sure if I should.

Thanks everyone, for all the help, as usual : )

__________________
BEERstudio
Check out my brewery
krispy3d is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-05-2012, 03:52 PM   #2
Spartan1979
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Spartan1979's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: O'Fallon, MO
Posts: 1,166
Liked 92 Times on 66 Posts
Likes Given: 91

Default

I would think it would depend on if you need all the salts in the mash to help adjust the mash pH. Since I usually need to lower my mash pH, I started adding all the salts (just Calcium Chloride) to my strike water. I base the amount of salts I used on how much ends up in the final volume.

__________________
Spartan1979 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-05-2012, 04:00 PM   #3
krispy3d
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Davis, California
Posts: 60
Liked 12 Times on 9 Posts
Likes Given: 8

Default

The pH seems to be in a good range either way. I guess another way of asking the question is, if I want to hit certain ion concentrations to accentuate certain styles (i.e. higher sulfates for hoppy beers, higher chloride for malty beers, etc.) should I target specific ranges in just the strike water or those same ranges in the entire water volume?

__________________
BEERstudio
Check out my brewery
krispy3d is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-05-2012, 04:35 PM   #4
ArcLight
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Millburn, NJ
Posts: 943
Liked 43 Times on 37 Posts
Likes Given: 48

Default

>>The pH seems to be in a good range either way. I guess another way of asking the question is, if I want to hit certain ion concentrations to accentuate certain styles (i.e. higher sulfates for hoppy beers, higher chloride for malty beers, etc.) should I target specific ranges in just the strike water or those same ranges in the entire water volume?

My goal is taste not Ph adjustment.

While many will say to say "scale up for the entire batch",
I instead adjust for water into the fermentor + water lost to (trub + grain + hops)
So if I need 5 gallons, and lose 1.5 gallons to Trub/Grain/Hops I treat for 6.5 gallons, not the 7.75 gallons I start with.


My thoughts are if water evaporates, the salts become more concentrated. I dont want that. Especially not if I boil for 90 minutes.

__________________
ArcLight is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-05-2012, 06:55 PM   #5
Spartan1979
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Spartan1979's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: O'Fallon, MO
Posts: 1,166
Liked 92 Times on 66 Posts
Likes Given: 91

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by krispy3d View Post
The pH seems to be in a good range either way. I guess another way of asking the question is, if I want to hit certain ion concentrations to accentuate certain styles (i.e. higher sulfates for hoppy beers, higher chloride for malty beers, etc.) should I target specific ranges in just the strike water or those same ranges in the entire water volume?
Then I'd say the entire volume.
__________________
Spartan1979 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-05-2012, 07:00 PM   #6
Spartan1979
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Spartan1979's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: O'Fallon, MO
Posts: 1,166
Liked 92 Times on 66 Posts
Likes Given: 91

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcLight View Post
>>The pH seems to be in a good range either way. I guess another way of asking the question is, if I want to hit certain ion concentrations to accentuate certain styles (i.e. higher sulfates for hoppy beers, higher chloride for malty beers, etc.) should I target specific ranges in just the strike water or those same ranges in the entire water volume?

My goal is taste not Ph adjustment.

While many will say to say "scale up for the entire batch",
I instead adjust for water into the fermentor + water lost to (trub + grain + hops)
So if I need 5 gallons, and lose 1.5 gallons to Trub/Grain/Hops I treat for 6.5 gallons, not the 7.75 gallons I start with.


My thoughts are if water evaporates, the salts become more concentrated. I dont want that. Especially not if I boil for 90 minutes.
I would say that if you are try to hit ratios of chlorides to sulfates for example, and you are starting with tap water, then it should be based on the pre-boil volume. All the ions that come out of the tap will also become more concentrated in the final volume. So to keep the ratios where you want, it would require the salts you add to become proportionally more concentrated.

OTOH, if you are starting with RO water, that might be a different story.
__________________
Spartan1979 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-05-2012, 07:28 PM   #7
mabrungard
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Carmel, IN
Posts: 2,685
Liked 181 Times on 158 Posts
Likes Given: 24

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan1979 View Post
All the ions that come out of the tap will also become more concentrated in the final volume. So to keep the ratios where you want, it would require the salts you add to become proportionally more concentrated.
Exactly! Don't worry about concentrating during the boil. Look at the preboil ion concentrations for the water fitting your beer's requirements and forget what concentrations they actually end up in the beer. There are several processes in the mash, boil, and ferment that alter the ionic concentrations in the beer. To worry about the concentrations at the end of boil is no help.
__________________

Martin B
Carmel, IN
BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water

mabrungard is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-05-2012, 08:20 PM   #8
ArcLight
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Millburn, NJ
Posts: 943
Liked 43 Times on 37 Posts
Likes Given: 48

Default

>>I would say that if you are try to hit ratios of chlorides to sulfates for example, and you are starting with tap water, then it should be based on the pre-boil volume. All the ions that come out of the tap will also become more concentrated in the final volume. So to keep the ratios where you want, it would require the salts you add to become proportionally more concentrated.
OTOH, if you are starting with RO water, that might be a different story.

You raise a good point.

I am using New York City tap water which is as close to RO water as you are going to get from a free water source.

__________________
ArcLight is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-05-2012, 10:43 PM   #9
krispy3d
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Davis, California
Posts: 60
Liked 12 Times on 9 Posts
Likes Given: 8

Default

Thanks for the responses, everyone. So I went with adding salts just to the mash water. I've been reading up on chemistry, but some of it is not well described even in the beginners' write-ups. The one thing that confuses me is that they're never totally clear with which of the brewing steps the suggested ion concentration ranges apply to. They give a guideline about levels of certain ions, but they don't note that it's just the mash water or the entire volume. I went with just the mash water thinking that it's the concentration of ions during the enzymatic mash process that makes a difference, not the concentration throughout the entire water volume. But, I'm still not sure.

__________________
BEERstudio
Check out my brewery
krispy3d is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-05-2012, 11:48 PM   #10
ArcLight
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Millburn, NJ
Posts: 943
Liked 43 Times on 37 Posts
Likes Given: 48

Default

Before adding anything, get a Ward labs water report.

Chlorine you certainly want to remove.
The other salts add in moderation.
Tip - take a glass of the beer you made, add a pinch of either gypsum or Calcium Chloride, and see how you like it.
Be careful not to make it taste to minerally (Alka Seltzer)

__________________
ArcLight is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Forgot to add brewing salts to mash water until 10 minutes in. andy777 All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 2 07-09-2012 08:26 PM
RO water / salts question amishland All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 7 01-16-2012 05:35 PM
Building water - where to add the salts? JLem All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 4 10-02-2011 11:37 PM
Water report, help with ph and salts. jmo88 All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 7 12-02-2008 11:30 PM
water salts mediumsk All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 10 09-17-2007 01:11 PM