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Old 02-15-2012, 08:36 AM   #1
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Default Roggenbier

I am going to try my hand at this style next and have a few ponderings. First, the recipe.

6.00lbs American Munich 10L
6.00lbs Rye Malt
0.13lbs British Pale Chocolate 0.5 4.2
1oz Hallertau
WLP300

6 gallons

1. I am going to use this opportunity to try my hand at a stepped mash with a rest @90-95F and another @153-154. I am doing the step as a precationary measure having done a pumpkin wheat and reading of the sticky rye. Could I use a decoction to get to mash out temp? Do you think there are any benefits? I usually do simple single infusion with no mashout and a 165-180 sparge.

2.How do you think an oz of late hops might work. Perhaps an oz of Hallertau or Cascade

3. Rice hulls, will I need them?

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Old 02-15-2012, 07:27 PM   #2
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1) I don't think you'll taste much difference with a step/decoc mash compared to a single infusion, but I cannot say from experience.

2) If you're shooting for style, you'll wanna stay less than 30IBUs, and depending on the AA% and an ounce @5/flameout will put you over that by a bit.

3)Absolutely, without question will you need rice hulls. I'd use at LEAST 2 lbs. I just did a 12 gallon batch of roggenbier with 1 lb of rice hulls, and i was stuck like a mother. I had to sparge by hand by digging out the grain, and collander-ing the grains over my BK.

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Old 02-16-2012, 02:31 PM   #3
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2lbs sounds excessive for a 6gal batch. I've done a rye saison at 27% rye and didn't use any rice hulls. Last time I used rice hulls was for a pumpkin beer. Anyhow a protein rest will help reduce the stickiness. So if you do a protein rest for 15-20 min at 122 should serve you well. Then when you're sparging you'll want to sparge closer to 175 instead of 168 like the universal standard. You'll keep the mash more liquid, and you won't do anything bad by keeping the temp up.

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Old 02-16-2012, 04:18 PM   #4
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You're giving advice on a 1/4 rye bill when the OP has a 1/2 rye bill, which is double the amount of rye you used. 2lbs isn't excessive when you take that fact into account.

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Old 02-16-2012, 04:31 PM   #5
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I know how to do math, thanks for the fraction lesson though. I'm giving advice on yes a 1/4 bill and using ZERO rice hulls. Based on your reasoning I should have used at least a pound in my mash or I would have had a stuck mash. Well that is unless of course your reasoning isn't a linear relationship. I didn't use any and did not have a stuck mash, not even slow. So I think that some may help but 2lbs is excessive. Then again if he doesn't brew using sound techniques he'll have a problem and then excessive rice hulls would be advised as a bandaid for lack of proper technique.

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Old 02-16-2012, 04:46 PM   #6
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Glad i could teach you. I'm also glad it satisfies your lot in life to rain down blind vengeance on someone who has apparently wronged you so harshly that you cannot stand idly by and tolerate a reply that counters your opinion.

It's nice when you can't put a face to the person you're bashing, isn't it? It's almost as if your words have no consequence and you can say whatever you like. The internets are fun aren't they. I find it incredibly mature as well.

Now that you've had your fun, can we resume helping a fellow brewer out? Or is your goal to derail this conversation?

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Old 02-16-2012, 05:08 PM   #7
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Are we not here to discuss brewing? Throwing excessive rice hulls at a mash problem or (my favorite) wheat at a head retention issue is not discussing brewing. That's called a short cut in my book. Since you have no experience (as stated) with step mashing you wouldn't know that a proper step mash and temps will reduce some of the beta glucans (proteins) contributed to the mash from rye. So a protein rest would have helped you out big time and it will help this brother out. I'm sure most stores are charging the same price and with rice hulls being an average of $2.50/ll I'm trying to save the dude like $5 so he doesn't go nuts and buy 3lbs of rice hulls. So yes I've had fun. I have fun educating someone with real brewing techniques instead of using quick fixes. So having a good mash pH, with a protein rest, and a hotter than normal sparge will help out.

Oooh wait you think I'm personally bashing you with the lack of proper technique comment? I didn't think you were so sensitive. I've had stuck mashes in the past, even ones with rice hulls. However I started doing protein rests and that helped out to the point that when I forgot to use rice hulls on a heavy flaked wheat beer, I realized I didn't need them anymore. Single infusion works for most beers, but there's a reason why professional hefe brewers do a step mash, scientifically backed reasons.

So I suggest you get off your high, mighty and easy to offend soap box. Thanks for the lecture about how you're better than me too. Yes, in your opinion at least, that is probably a continuation of my further derailment of helping this brew brother out.

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Old 02-17-2012, 08:01 AM   #8
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Yeah the low temp rest is for breaking down the sticky stuff. I will shoot for 105-110 on the first rest and throw a few handfuls of rice hulls. I have 1/4lb somewhere.

After reading up a little more on decoctions I think I will use one to get up to mashout temp. This style almost begs for it. Now to get my volumes worked out.

I find myself wanting to hop it up. I'm not really interested in hopping to style here and I think I want some late hoppage to play off the rye and maltyness. The early Hallertau is not contributing very much bitterness as it stands so I think I am safe with hopping late. What say yea? Hallertau, Cascade, Chinook

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Old 02-17-2012, 01:58 PM   #9
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My experience with heavy rye and wheat grain bill beers tells me that a prortein rest helps, and maybe more importantly, make sure before you start your sparge that your mash is thin enough.

I had problems with the mash of a heavy rye beer sticking. My normal procedure is to first drain the first running without adding any sparge water. Then I do two equal batch sparges.

When I re-brewed this I added some extra water before I started my vorlauf and first runoff - no problems at all. The only thing I needed to do was to dilute my mash a little and that resolved any potential sticking issues.

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Old 02-17-2012, 02:50 PM   #10
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I just got back from the HBS and I decide on 1 oz of tettnang for my late hops. Wish me luck. I've never even had a roggenbier so Im looking forward to it.

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