Once again, stuck at 1.020

Yakima 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
jmo88

jmo88

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
1,374
Reaction score
31
Location
Seattle
So I don't necessarily want a discussion of the 1.020 curse, as a find the remedies to be vague stabs in the dark. But possibly someone can pick up on something in my system that has caused this and can potentially help the many other brewers with the same issue.

My last 4 brews finished at 1.020 all with different grain bills, yeast strains (notty, windsor, and 1056) AG's and PM's. When I brewed extract I always managed to hit 1.012 or lower.

-I iodine test for starch conversion on first vorlauf
-Single infusion mash at 152 for 60min
-cool to 68, pitch, ferment in cellar at 62
-no yeast nutrients
-aerate by pouring between two buckets three or four times until foam becomes an issue
-fermentation halts at 1.020 after about three days in primary. Gravity never sinks after aging a week more in primary and two weeks more in secondary.

Any ideas?
 
My first gut reaction is that 62˚F is too low for Notty and for 1056. -- BUT, before I hone in on that...

1) Did you make a yeast starter? Or did you pitch directly without a starter?
2) What were the OGs of these beers?

Here's why I ask: If the OG was anything over 1.050, and your fermentation room is kept at around 62˚F, the combination between cold temp & underpitching would likely result in a partial/stuck fermentation. If you used the adequate amount of yeast for the batch, it would be more likely to finish its fermentation even at a cool temperature. The same goes if you didn't use a starter but fermented at a warmer temp such as 67˚-68˚F.

I'm sorry you find our advice to be vague stabs in the dark - Last I checked, that's how process of elimination works though - Factoring in/controlling numerous variables, and using the feedback from the changes made to make a precise determination of the cause.
 
BeernuT100 said:
Have you tested your water and / or verified your hydrometer is correct?
Click to expand...

hydrometer reads 1.098 at 60F. When I correct my temp readings I also subtract 0.002

I haven't tested my water. I use Seattle city water ever since going AG. I used to use store bough reverse osmosis water in my extracts and PM's. The city dept posts info of the water, but I really have no idea what I'm looking at good or bad and how it effects my brewing. Think this is an issue?
 
not to mention just 1 week and 3 days in primary? It's going to halt after moving to secondary most like because you're moving it off the yeast cake. Also the low ferm temp, under pitching and checking your hydro for calibration. Was going to give you a suggestion but I see you don't want them. Just answers without doing anything to achieve them.

Most hydrometers should be 1.000 at 60. Is this what yours states? if so then adjusting .002 isn't accurate.
You don't wanna use RO water when doing a PM or AG. it's ok in your extract cause there's no starch conversions/mashing.
 
Chriso said:
My first gut reaction is that 62˚F is too low for Notty and for 1056. -- BUT, before I hone in on that...

1) Did you make a yeast starter? Or did you pitch directly without a starter?
2) What were the OGs of these beers?

Here's why I ask: If the OG was anything over 1.050, and your fermentation room is kept at around 62˚F, the combination between cold temp & underpitching would likely result in a partial/stuck fermentation. If you used the adequate amount of yeast for the batch, it would be more likely to finish its fermentation even at a cool temperature. The same goes if you didn't use a starter but fermented at a warmer temp such as 67˚-68˚F.

I'm sorry you find our advice to be vague stabs in the dark - Last I checked, that's how process of elimination works though - Factoring in/controlling numerous variables, and using the feedback from the changes made to make a precise determination of the cause.
Click to expand...

I didn't mean any disrespect by the vague stabs in the dark. I actually enjoy reading the stabs in the dark. I just spent a good deal of time reading threads about the 1.020 curse and found it inconclusive. I simply wanted to hone in on my system as opposed to discussing enigma behind the # 1.020

My OG on all batches with this issue have ranged from 1.040 to 1.052. I thought my temp would be okay because the ambient temp is usually a few degrees lower than the fermentation temp and Notty claims to ferment at 57F.
 
I have a vigorous fermentation for two days. From day three forward it never moves passed 1.020. I wouldn't think leaving it beyond 10 days in the primary would make it drop further. Also, I tried moving it to 70F for two days and gently swirling the bucket, still nothing.

Maybe I should just start the fermentation and leave it at 70F until I rack to the secondary?
 
jmo88 said:
I didn't mean any disrespect by the vague stabs in the dark. I actually enjoy reading the stabs in the dark. I just spent a good deal of time reading threads about the 1.020 curse and found it inconclusive.
Click to expand...

OK - I mistook what you meant - Makes more sense now, thx.

OG's are all fine for direct pitching, really.... I wonder what would happen if, on the 3rd day, as the fermentation is beginning to subside and the yeast are starting to drop out, you moved it from the 62˚ to the 70˚*room... Maybe if you got the beer into the warmer temperature while it was still active, but after the bulk of fermentation had subsided (e.g. to prevent undesirable off-flavor or ester/phenol).

WY1056 should have eaten anything in there, it's a powerhouse yeast strain.

I'm not quite sure what could be causing this. :/
 
I've done this twice without luck, but hey each beer is different. I just moved my heather mild (pitched 4 days ago) to 70F. This beer stopped fermenting Tuesday. Same reading T, W, and Th. We shall see...
 
If you do your mash at the higher end of the conversion scale, ie 155-158 you will get a more dextrinous, less fermentable wort. It will still show up on iodine test as complete conversion.

I know you mentioned a 152 degree mash but if your thermometer os off by 4 or 5 degrees you will see a higher FG.
 
I calibrate the thermometer in ice water each time I brew, hasn't been off since the day I got it. Does it matter that immediately before my first running I add about a gallon of 170F water? That shouldn't create more unfermentables like a warmer mash, right?
 
With all taken in above by you I offer perhaps an even simpler solution. Rouse the yeast gently with a sanitized wand of some type and if possible spray the outside with hot tap water for a couple of minutes.

If your OG was that high the yeast may sense a change very sharply near the end of their fermentation stage. They could be just going to sleep upon the lack of food. If you had a kick-ass fermentation at a lower temp than sweet! But with the natural cycle of yeast they want to go into dormancy to conserve energy. At that point the lower temp could aid in their hibernation. Just wake em up a bit. The ones that are only half asleep will help finish out your beer.

good luck.

-OB
 
Try calibrating your thermometer in boiling water, boiling is closer to the temps you desire than ice. You could be accurate on the low end but off on the high end of the scale.
 
jmo88 said:
I calibrate the thermometer in ice water each time I brew, hasn't been off since the day I got it. Does it matter that immediately before my first running I add about a gallon of 170F water? That shouldn't create more unfermentables like a warmer mash, right?
Click to expand...

+ 1 on what Joe says. I'm not saying this is definitely the case but I am putting the cause of your higher FG on your mash as opposed to the yeast.

The yeast just does its job. It has no reason to stop entirely while it still has viable fuel left. Short of you dropping, or raising, the temp 30 degrees the yeast will go until is finished. Period.

That is why I'm guessing that it has run out of fuel. Long chain, unfermentable, sugars, will show up on in your gravity but they will not ferment out. These sugars are produced in higher quantities at higher mash temps (154-158) so if you drop your mash temp by three or four degrees you should get a more fermentable wort.

Its funny but you have the issue of finishing with a higher FG I have the opposite. I mash at 154 and usually end up .004 lower than expected.
 
Joe Camel said:
Try calibrating your thermometer in boiling water, boiling is closer to the temps you desire than ice. You could be accurate on the low end but off on the high end of the scale.
Click to expand...

Thanks for pointing this out. I checked my thermometer at boiling temp and it was reading at about 202F. :mad: That means I am 10F off. Holy balls! I calibrated it and will try it this weekend. Oh, and I moved my fermenter to 70F and stirred the yeast cake back into suspension, nothing happened. Long-chain unfermentables it is. Plus I am using Nottingham, that stuff is like super yeast, it should ferment at my 62F no problem and do it on the dry side.

What thermometers do you guys use?
 
Go digital, makes a world of difference. Get an oven thermometer that you stick in the turkey and then the wire runs out the door and connects to the base.

I too use Nottingham and I just had my first beer stop the highest it ever did at 1.016 (instead of 1.012) which I thought was really high. Turns out great and I am going to aim for 1.020 next time. Reason I had this happen was a 162* mash. I ferment at the higher end of 68-70.
 
jmo88 said:
Thanks for pointing this out. I checked my thermometer at boiling temp and it was reading at about 202F. :mad: That means I am 10F off. Holy balls! I calibrated it and will try it this weekend. Oh, and I moved my fermenter to 70F and stirred the yeast cake back into suspension, nothing happened. Long-chain unfermentables it is. Plus I am using Nottingham, that stuff is like super yeast, it should ferment at my 62F no problem and do it on the dry side.

What thermometers do you guys use?
Click to expand...


What elevation do you live at? It's important to note that 212F is only at 1 atmosphere of pressure (sea level). Where I live boiling point is 199F. Here's a calculator you can use: http://www.csgnetwork.com/h2oboilcalc.html

BTW.. I just uncovered the same error with my thermometer and it was off the very same amount as yours, it reads 10F low in the mash range. Which I'm certain is why my final gravities are higher than I would like them to be.

Scott
 
jmo88 said:
hydrometer reads 1.098 at 60F. When I correct my temp readings I also subtract 0.002

I haven't tested my water. I use Seattle city water ever since going AG. I used to use store bough reverse osmosis water in my extracts and PM's. The city dept posts info of the water, but I really have no idea what I'm looking at good or bad and how it effects my brewing. Think this is an issue?
Click to expand...

Dude.. I use Seattle water too. It is not well suited for brewing as is by any means. My recommendation is to use half distilled/half tap. Albertsons sells distilled in 1 gallon jugs at 79 cents per. Then treat your water with the appropriate brewing salts.
 
jmo88 said:
hydrometer reads 1.098 at 60F. When I correct my temp readings I also subtract 0.002

I haven't tested my water. I use Seattle city water ever since going AG. I used to use store bough reverse osmosis water in my extracts and PM's. The city dept posts info of the water, but I really have no idea what I'm looking at good or bad and how it effects my brewing. Think this is an issue?
Click to expand...

Again... good fermentation without Seattle water, bad fermentation with.

Could it be any more obvious? lol
 
jmo88 said:
Thanks for pointing this out. I checked my thermometer at boiling temp and it was reading at about 202F. :mad: That means I am 10F off. Holy balls! I calibrated it and will try it this weekend. Oh, and I moved my fermenter to 70F and stirred the yeast cake back into suspension, nothing happened. Long-chain unfermentables it is. Plus I am using Nottingham, that stuff is like super yeast, it should ferment at my 62F no problem and do it on the dry side.

What thermometers do you guys use?
Click to expand...

Also, with the ****ty soft ass Seattle water, it is hard to get good conversion. Gypsum and Burton Salts are your friends.
 
Are you using any ingredients that produce unfermentables to increase mouth feel and or body? Post your recipe. Maybe some of our ingredient experts can spot something.
 
noremorse1 said:
Also, with the ****ty soft ass Seattle water, it is hard to get good conversion. Gypsum and Burton Salts are your friends.
Click to expand...

Shoot. I have neither of these. And I have my brew session scheduled for tomorrow. Should I wait until my LHBS opens or is there another way I can do a mash for tomorrow? Could I use RO water for the mash then use Seattle water for the sparge?
 
jmo88 said:
Shoot. I have neither of these. And I have my brew session scheduled for tomorrow. Should I wait until my LHBS opens or is there another way I can do a mash for tomorrow? Could I use RO water for the mash then use Seattle water for the sparge?
Click to expand...

Go 50/50 with distilled water. Albertsons has it on sale right now for $0.79 per gallon. This should help you out a bit.
 
What would be wrong with just using all spring water? Wouldn't that work better? Also, I should only need about 3.5 gallons for the mash. I don't need to worry about the sparge water right?
 
jmo88 said:
What would be wrong with just using all spring water? Wouldn't that work better? Also, I should only need about 3.5 gallons for the mash. I don't need to worry about the sparge water right?
Click to expand...

You could go 100% if you want. The problem with our water as is is that not only does it lead to poor conversion, it has no "hop snap" meaning... untreated, hops fall right out.

Trust me. I learned the hard/expensive way. 3 failed all-grain batches before I figured it out.
 
jmo88 said:
What would be wrong with just using all spring water? Wouldn't that work better? Also, I should only need about 3.5 gallons for the mash. I don't need to worry about the sparge water right?
Click to expand...

I agree that water plays a big role. I found your water analysis here, http://www.seattle.gov/UTIL/stellent/groups/public/@spu/documents/webcontent/spu01_003889.pdf I have brewed in far worse water than this and I did not necessarily have any problems worth noting. The suggestion to mix half RO with half municipal (I would recommend after filtering) is a good suggestion.

I would be concerned about 100% of the water you use. Mashing is only one part of the water chemistry. The other is fermentation. Yeasties care too.

Scott
 

Similar threads

G
Fermentis BR-8 dry Brettanomyces Experiences
2
Replies
62
Views
7K
Miraculix
Miraculix
jazabril
Caps jumping while bottling?
Replies
5
Views
365
jazabril
jazabril
kmall002
Long post about missing gravity - but need help
Replies
4
Views
712
VikeMan
VikeMan
T
All-grain newbie...having issues.
Replies
13
Views
1K
IslandLizard
IslandLizard
gunhaus
RELAX!!It's only beer -it ain't that hard. . .
Replies
5
Views
787
betarhoalphadelta
betarhoalphadelta
InkBird 300

Latest posts

Back
Top